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WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:22 pm
by Pam Phillips
This is Stanley Gilman born in London 1893, I am trying to find out what he did in WW1. This photo is very poor quality but is the only one I have. Does anyone recognise the uniform? There are several Stanley Gilmans in the records, so a clue as to the regiment would be very helpful. Thank you.
Pam Phillips

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:43 pm
by ianbee
Medal records for two x Stanley Gilman. Either or neither may be yours?
While we wait for the military experts...
The Stanley you are interested in, was he the son of William Gilman? Apparently born in Lambeth, and date of birth from the 1939 Register was 2 October 1893. Can't see a birth registration!
He married Nellie Susannah Rebecca Smith, 27 Oct 1912, at St Luke's Camberwell
Stanley was a Clerk.

1918 electoral roll has him at 12 Ewell Place SE5, an absent voter
Ancestry have not - as usual - given us the spring 1919 register!
Autumn 1919 at 12 Ewell Place he is no longer a naval/military voter
Not sure you will find an AVL for Camberwell

Two of Stanley's children were -
Ivy D Gilman, registered Sep 1915, Camberwell (born 5 August)
Stanley T Gilman, March 1919, Camberwell (born 1 Feb)

It may be worth getting their birth certificates, see if Stanley was in the army when they were registered, and what it says about him

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:12 pm
by AdrianB38
I believe that the light coloured cap band may indicate an officer cadet. Certainly, one thread on the Great War Forum has a chap with a similar cap band who was declared to be an officer cadet. One post included the comment that "They would obtain their Sam Browne belts on qualifying as trained officers" - and this guy has no Sam Browne belt (that's the diagonal thingy, to be technical ;) ). Note the chap has an open collar with lapels, just like an officer.

I'm not convinced the cap badge would help, even if we could see it properly - it may be the General Service badge that would be replaced with a proper badge later on joining his unit. If this really is an officer cadet, then it ought to be easier to trace, simply because of his rank on the Medal Index Card. However, officers had to apply for their medals (assuming they served overseas during WW1) and not all did. Unless I missed the Medal Index Card, JRR Tolkien, for instance, didn't apply for his campaign medals.

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:58 am
by Pam Phillips
Thank you Ian, Yes, this is the right Stanley Gilman, and I have been unable to find his birth registration - I have his birth date from the 1939 Census 2nd October 1893 and have applied to Southwark Record Office, no reply yet. I hadn't thought of getting a certificate for a child born during the war, good thought, but at £9.20 a pop I'll think about it.
And thank you Adrian for the officer cadet idea. He seems to be wearing breeches, does this indicate cavalry or what?

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:16 am
by Pam Phillips
ianbee, where did you find the 1918 electoral roll?

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:44 am
by AdrianB38
Pam re breeches - so far as I can see, "baggy trousers" of some form - OK, probably jodhpurs but I'm trying not to prejudge the issue - seem standard for all officers. I've just seen a suggestion that junior officers wore puttees while more senior ones wore riding boots. This reflects the fact that - at least theoretically - all officers had horses, even in the infantry. (Ordinary troopers in the Regular cavalry wore puttees by the way).

Assuming that your chap passed his course and was commissioned as an officer, then his name should appear in the London Gazette, which can be searched online, though the search engine is a little odd. For instance, I've never found it at all helpful to look in specific categories in the search - just do a text search - try the surname only first to see what the volume of entries looks like.

Sent from my MotoG3

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:49 am
by ianbee
Electoral register was from ancestry
Stanley Gilman first appears in their index in 1928, along with Nellie, at 12 Ewell Place
In fact he was listed at the same address for each of the previous 10 years! Doesn't come up in their searches.
Southwark/Camberwell/1918 - is image 989 (of 1588)
Or, I've found another name on the page that does appear in the index, try a search for Julia Isted in 1918 and 1919

Stanley's brother Thomas Broughton Gilman was a Corporal in the ASC. Plenty of army records available for him! (Hoped it might say he had a brother in the forces, it doesn't)

Not only is there no birth reg in 1893 for Stanley, but his whole family is missing in 1891! Electoral registers for 1891 and 1892 have his father William Macdonald Gilman at 26 Nelson Square, Southwark.
I am afraid the relevant page is missing, see ... _Index_M-O

Frustratingly, there is one person we can see at no. 26 in 1891! Elizabeth Calvert, age 84 (piece 341 folio 7 page 9)

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:25 am
by Pam Phillips
Hi Ian, Thank you for all that. They are an elusive family. William Macdonald Gilman married Helen Elizabeth Ainslie in Berwick in 1871 and had 2 sons. In 1881 all 4 are living at 6 Cornwall Rd, Paddington. In 1891 the 2 boys are with an uncle in Kent, and I can't find either parent! In 1901 William Mac Gilman is at 1 Graham St, Newington, (widower) with 4 more children, Thomas, Phyllis, Mabel and Stanley. No baptisms.
Helen Elizabeth is still alive in 1911 at 6 Crookham Rd, Fulham with a lodger. Her marriage certificate states she is a spinster, but she was a widow with a daughter, Helen Waller Ainslie, born in China in 1865. Can only find her in 1871, 1891 and 1901.
Since I couldn't find Stanley's birth reg, I sent for Thomas's, to see who his mother was, Elizabeth Bourton. Her death is recorded in 1898 as Elizabeth Gilman. Can I assume she was also Stanley's mother!
It's like doing a crossword puzzle! Where next! (I do have Wm Mac Gilman's will)

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:36 pm
by ianbee
Took my own advice, and searched for Julia Isted, and found two entries for her indexed in 1919!
The Camberwell Spring 1919 electoral register is on ancestry after all.
It's good news!
Don't know how early in 1919 it was compiled, but at 12 Ewell Place, Stanley Gilman was still listed as an absent, naval/military voter (image 2783)

So it holds out the hope at least that the March 1919 birth certificate may contain relevant info.

Re: WW1 Uniform

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:01 am
by Pam Phillips
Excellent, but please tell me how got there. I can't get nearer than 1928! Ancestry card catalogue then where?