Moderator Control Panel ]

Bregmen

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Bregmen

Postby grandmabear » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:49 am

I have a problem that my 3x grt grandfather george Bregmen is suposed to have been born in St George East London on 18 sept 1814, he went to South Australia at some stage where in 1838 he was living and married there in 1840 then went to new Zealand. His occupation was given as Seaman and Sawyer, I havnt been able to find anyone with that name in London or indeed England and it would be strange if he was all alone, I tried the 1841 census with no luck at all. When he married he said his father was John Bregmen. I would really like to find out more on him, before he left for Australia.
Hes been a real puzzle to me
thanks Jan
grandmabear
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:16 am

Re: Bregmen

Postby grandmabear » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:05 pm

I just want to add that My Grandfather had said they were from Germany and had hinted at a name change at some stage, if this is correct i guess i will not find any information on them
grandmabear
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:16 am

Re: Bregmen

Postby callbrian » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:49 pm

Hi Jan,
I did wonder when the first posting came through,whether it could possibly be Bergman or similar. I have seen the reference to the birthdate and father's name of John on Familysearch. I looked through the shipslist also. Unfortunately that seems to be mainly passengers and not crew, which could have been possible.
Brian
[color=#0000FF]callbrian[/color]
User avatar
callbrian
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Cornwall, England

Re: Bregmen

Postby grandmabear » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:01 am

I was wondering along those lines as well Brian, if I could just find his record of birth it may help, but so far no luck.
Jan
grandmabear
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:16 am

Re: Bregmen

Postby Leone » Sat May 01, 2010 1:21 am

Hi there, Grandma Bear,

When I tried to turn the name 'Bregman' into a, hopefully, pretty close German original, the following associations sprung to my mind. Your suggestion that he might originally have been called 'Bergman' is certainly a possibility. It this is the case, however, then you're probably in trouble, because I think there might be quite a lot of Bergman(n)s originating from Germany. 'Ein Bergmann' in German is a name referring to a profession: it means 'a miner'. However, I was also thinking that the father, John Bregman, might originally have been called Johann(es) Brechmann. As English people usually have great difficulty in pronouncing the German 'ch' correctly, and often wrongly pronounce it as a 'g' (as pronounced in the word 'girl'), the father might have deliberately changed the difficult 'ch' into an easier pronounceable 'g'.

If the name Bregman is the original name, however, then I think the 'e' in Breg would be pronounced as 'Brayg' in German, and not as 'Bregg'. Thinking further along this line, I thought 'Breg' could be a reference to the Bregenzer Wald. The father's ancestors could have originated from the Bregenzer Wald (the Forest of Bregenz, on the border of Germany and Austria), and because of that have been called Bregmann: a man from Bregenz. But this is merely a rough guess on my part. Perhaps the latter suggestion is absolute nonsense. Or is there a town or area called 'Breg' in Germany and were they simply named after this town or area'?

I haven't done any research into the possibility of the existence of these surnames. However, I have never heard of the name Bregman, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The surnames Bergmann and Brechmann do exist, however, and there are people called Johannes Brechmann.

Hope this will help you.

Good hunting!

Leone
Leone
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: Bregmen

Postby Leone » Sat May 01, 2010 2:00 am

Hi Grandma Bear,

Had a quick look on the internet. Your family is not the only one called Bregman. The name Bregman also exists in Germany and in the Netherlands, for instance. If 'to breg' is a verb, I wouldn't know what it stands for. According to Wikipedia, the word 'Breg' can have several meanings: 1. it is a place name in Slovenia. 2. It forms part of The Slovak municipality of Mezica in Koroska and has 79,000 inhabitants. 3. It is one of the two streams that form the Danube. This stream starts in the Black Forest in Germany, near Furtwangen in Baden-Wuerttemberg.

Okay, must stop here. Just wanted to let you know this. Good luck with your search,

Leone
Leone
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: Bregmen

Postby grandmabear » Sat May 01, 2010 9:52 am

Thanks Leone, Thats given me some more choices to look for, But I dont think I will find much more on George Bregmen as I dont have enough to go on.
I am wondering however if theres a way to find if any Sheppards (or variant spellings) lived at Lake Lane portsea Portsmouth about 1838 onward. I am not sure what area they would be in on the census.
George Married catherine Sheppard at Adelaide south australia and she had previously written for a free passage and gave her address as Lake Lane . I have all but given up on her as well.
Thanks Jan
grandmabear
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:16 am

Re: Bregmen

Postby Leone » Tue May 04, 2010 1:36 am

Hi Grandma Bear,

Will try to answer your last question another time, but first I shall tell you what I found on your first question.

IGI on Family Search.org agrees with you that your 3x gt grandfather George Bregmen was born on 18 Sep 1814 in St. George in the East, STEPNEY, London. Perhaps the fact that Stepney is mentioned might make it easier to trace his birth or baptism records. East London was typically the place where lots of immigrants from all walks of life lived, some of them had fled from poverty, others from religious persecution, so I'm beginning to think that George's birth or baptism might have been recorded in other than the usual records. Were your ancestors perhaps Jewish, Evangelical (Evangelisch in German) or perhaps Huguenots? That might explain why their births and marriages might not have been registered as Church of England. These faiths are usually well organised and have good baptism and marriage registers.

I also found a personal file on IGI of a John Bregmen (probably George's father). It says: birth around 1791 of London, London, England. Spouse: Mrs John Bregmen. Marriage: around 1816 of London, London, England.

There is also a file on a Mrs John Bregmen, which says: birth around 1795 of London, London, England. Spouse: John Bregmen. Marriage: around 1816 of London, London, England.

If this information is correct, then it would seem that your 4x gt grandfather was born in England and that the German roots must lie with your 5x gt grandfather or with earlier ancestors. This should greatly improve your chances of getting further up your family tree, because this could suggest that the surname change is pre 1791.

Okay, must stop here. Hope this information is of some help to you. Will try and look for more info another time.

Good luck,

Leone
Leone
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: Bregmen

Postby Leone » Tue May 04, 2010 1:47 am

Hi again,

Forgot to add something. The birth file on IGI of George Bregmen also mentioned his death: 12 August 1871. No place of death mentioned. Perhaps you already knew his date of death, but I thought it wise to add this in case you didn't know.

Leone
Leone
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: Bregmen

Postby Leone » Wed May 05, 2010 8:03 pm

Hi Jan,

On hwj.oxfordjournals.org.cgi/reprint/56/1/217.pdf I read the following: '50% of St. George in the East and Whitechapel were Jewish.'

On Ancestry.com I found the following. When I typed in the surname 'Bregmen': name meaning and history', the answer was:
'German and Jewish (Askenazic): metathesized form of Bergman or Bergmann. Jewish (eastern Ashkenazic): topographic name for someone who lived near a river or stream, from eastern Yiddish 'breg': 'shore', 'bank', 'coast' (from Polish 'brzeg') + 'man'.

If your family had a surname change at some point, then it could be that George Bregmen was born before marriage, and was baptised and registered under the surname of his mother, and that later, when his parents married, he was given his father's surname Bregmen. Another possibility is that his birth under the surname Bregmen was registered elsewhere. It is also possible that the family decided to change their surname into a name which better fitted their German/Eastern European roots, but all these suggestions are merely rough guesses on my part. Will continue to look for a more exact answer for you.

If you could give me some details on your grandfather's parents (where and when were they born, when and where did they marry), then perhaps we can figure out where to look and can perhaps find the missing links upwards. With the details you have given me, I think it will be hard to find a birth certificate. E.g.: the forename and surname of George's mother are missing. Any idea who she was?
Sorry I can't be of more help with the current information at the moment.

with kind regards, Leone
With kind regards, Leone
Leone
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Next

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest