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Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:49 pm
by Robbie J N
Hello all, I have a bunch of problems trying to find records for various people, post 1837, so there should be records to be found. I am sorry the title of this post is a bit vague, but I thought that putting all my queries in a single thread might seem less like I was trying to dominate the message boards with all my questions. (Plus there is a limit to the length of the heading, so I cannot fit all the various surnames in anyway, I already tried!) I have been stuck on most of these problems for several years.

Elizabeth Parsons born 1864ish in Birmingham or Aston, Warwickshire. Mother's maiden name Edwards. Her 2 younger brothers have birth records - Charles Stephen Parsons 1869 Q1 Birmingham - Harry Parsons 1870 Q3 Birmingham. Her 1st marriage record for 21st September 1885 in Aston, Warwickshire is available. Her 2nd marriage for 17th June 1915 in Tarbolton, Ayr is available. Her death record for 27th June 1927 in Kilmarnock, Ayr is available, although it has her father's name incorrect as James and it should say Charles Parsons. Mother's name is always Annie Jane Edwards.
Any help with her birth record would be appreciated.

Elizabeth Parsons' parents' marriage record. Father - Charles Parsons, electro-plater, born 1839ish. Mother Annie Jane Edwards, or just Ann Edwards, born 1845ish. (Mother's death record for 1870 just says Ann Parsons, not Annie Jane.) Annie had at least one sibling, called William, as after Annie Jane, Charles Stephen and Harry had died, and Elizabeth had moved somewhere, Charles was living with his brother-in-law William Edwards in the 1881 census. The marriage was probably before their daughter Elizabeth was born in 1864ish, and would have probably been in Birmingham or Aston, Warwickshire.
Any help with the marriage record would be appreciated.

According to the 1911 census Catherine Milligan, nee McDonnell, had 12 children, of which 8 had died. She lived in Liverpool her entire life as far as I can tell. I have found records for 10 of the 12, but the other 2 are a mystery. She married Michael Milligan in 1859 and he died in 1879, which puts a limit of 1880 on the birth of any children.
The known births are as follows - Sarah Milligan 1860 (Mrs Walsh), Matthew Milligan 1861, Margaret Ann Milligan 1862 (Mrs Smith), Christina Milligan 1864, Thomas John Milligan 1866, Elizabeth Milligan 1868, Katherine/Catherine Milligan 1871 (Mrs Murphy), James Milligan 1873, Rose Emma Milligan 1875 (Mrs McNally), Agnes Milligan 1878 (Mrs Ford). All 10 have both birth and Christening records. Sarah, Katherine, Rose and Agnes were still alive in 1911. Margaret was married and had children, but was dead by 1911. The other 5 all died without marrying or having children, as far as I am aware.
Any help with their birth records, or Christening records, would be appreciated.

Maria Oliver, born 1851 Q2 in Norwood, Surrey (registered in Lambeth for the birth record), is missing from the 1861 census. On the 1871 census she is living in Southwark, London, with her parents George and Frances Ann (nee Anning) and her 2 younger brothers Frederick Richard and Robert James. George was a gardener from Lyndhurst, Hampshire (born approx 1806) and her mother was from Devizes (or nearby), Wiltshire (born approx 1815). The reason I am looking for this record is there was a George Oliver, married to a Frances or Fanny, who had several other children listed in the 1841 and 1851 census. I am trying to find out if these 2 families are the same. The children listed in 1841 and 1851 are not listed on the 1871 census, probably because they were well into their 20s or 30s at that point, so the 1861 census would tie together the pre-1851 set of children with the post-1851 set of children. Checking the GRO for birth records, the older children do have mother's maiden name Anning, so this is highly likely to be correct, but all my family ever knew was of Maria's 2 younger brothers, and no-one else. (Her brother Frederick died in early adulthood, but Robert, and his wife Mary, raised her 2 orphaned children after her husband died, then she did too a couple of years later.) There were 5 older children, I think, called William, George, Thomas, Henry and Elizabeth, and even a possible 6th called Maria as well, born and died 1848 Q4. Calling a child after a deceased older sibling seemed to be quite common back then, so that does not throw me off this possibility. I know that on one census there seems to be some confusion as to who George's wife was, as it lists an Elizabeth, who was actually his mother-in-law, mother to Frances.
Any help with finding this census record (1861) would be appreciated.

This might be the trickiest question of all, and starts, possibly, prior to 1837, so apologies for that! We have in our possession a bible that used to belong to an Eleanor Mountfort, who was nee Greaves based on our investigations. She was born in London but got married and lived the rest of her life in Birmingham. Her husband was called Thomas Mountfort and he gave the bible to her originally, in the 1840s or so, as he is listed as 'TM' in the inscription. Eleanor then passed the bible on to 'JPN' in about the 1850s. This, we believe, was John Peter Nunn, who was born in Bristol, 1812, and was raised in Walcot, Somerset, until he eventually moved to Birmingham. Eleanor called JPN her 'brother' in the inscription, and we are not sure why. John was in the Freemasons, nudge nudge wink wink, and they sometimes refer to fellow members as brothers, but the wife of a member calling another member a 'brother' seems a bit of a stretch. Now, this gets more complicated, because one of John's brothers, Robert Reece Nunn, born 1821 in Walcot, had 2 children with his wife Juliana Joseph. They were married in London, where she was from, and their children were both born there. The eldest child was called Robert John Mountfort Nunn, born 1849, and the youngest was called Florence Mary Nunn, born 1852. Why did Robert have the middle name 'Mountfort', as it was so significant that his son also had it as a middle name? Added to this was the 1851 census, in Birmingham, where John Peter Nunn and his widowed mother Mary, nee Humphreys, had a visitor staying with them called Dorothy Mountfort, daughter of Eleanor and Thomas. The census is actually transcribed as John Peter Rinn, Mary Rinn and Zora Mogford! Plus, on the 1861 census, in Birmingham, staying with Eleanor, Thomas and their family, was a young girl from London called Florence M Nunn, again incorrectly transcribed as Florence M Dun. What was the connection between these 2 families? Were they related somehow, or merely just friends?
A bit more info - John Nunn, born 1775 not in Somerset, married Mary Humphreys, from Ruthin (possibly Llanfwrog), Denbighshire, in 1811 in Bathwick Somerset. They had 4 children, that we know of, John Peter, Joshua Henry, Goodman Humphreys and Robert Reece (sometimes Rees/Reece Robert).
Eleanor Greaves, daughter of John Linley Greaves, married Thomas Mounfort, son of Thomas Mountfort, in 1839 Birmingham. They had 4 children - Thomas, Walter, Ernest and Dorothy.
This has really stumped my father for a long time, especially since the bible came into his possession more than a decade ago after his aunt died.
Any help on finding a connection between these 2 families would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for any help anyone can provide with any of these problems.

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:50 pm
by MoVidger
Hi Robbie -- just a bit of info as regards #4 Maria Oliver.

Apologies if you've already seen the record - both Maria and brother Frederick Richard were baptised on 26 August 1855 in East Dulwich. Their abode is listed as "Troy Town". On FS, the image is 368 of 930.

I'm wondering if this was the "Troy Town" located near the northern part of Peckham Rye Common?

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:28 pm
by sdup26
Re #1 - Elizabeth was born c 1864, then her two brothers in 1869 & 1870. I wonder if the gap suggests that Annie Jane had a child before her relationship with Charles. On that basis, is this birth registration worth checking? - Ann Elizabeth Edwards JQ 1865, Aston, 6d 316, mother's maiden name Edwards.

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:34 pm
by Robbie J N
According to various census data, Robert James Oliver was born in Peckham, birth record registered in Camberwell, like his older brother Frederick. His Christening was not until 1867, with the address something like - 24 Williams Terrace, Olney Street. It was conducted in St Mary Newington, Surrey. I have no idea where the family were living in 1861, so I don’t know where to look.
Also, checking Frances’ Christening record, it says she was born in Shrewton, Wiltshire.

Quick addition:
After Maria married Robert John Mountfort Nunn (see #5), she was listed on the 1881 census as Ellen Nunn for some strange reason. She didn't have a middle name mentioned on any other documentation, but this is the correct person, as her son, RJMN Jr, was just a few weeks old and the same address is on his birth certificate as on the census. I think it was just a mistake by the census gatherer.

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:30 pm
by Robbie J N
Charles Stephen died in 1869 Q4, then mother Ann (Annie Jane) died in 1870 Q3, and finally Harry died in 1871 Q3. There might have been more children who were born and died between Elizabeth and Charles Stephen, who are not easy to find records for either, but I have no evidence of any others.
Given that Elizabeth married a Scot, then moved up to Scotland with their eldest child, before having 3 more, her descendants tend to re-use family names. One of her daughters was called Annie Jane Edwards Gibson, and a granddaughter, my grandmother, was called Elizabeth Parsons Gibson. I don't think Elizabeth had any other names besides Elizabeth, or it would probably have been listed on her 2 marriage records, or her death record. Her marriage in Aston states her father was Charles Parsons, electro-plater.
Sometimes, of course, birth records get names mixed up, and put the parents' names and the child the wrong way round, but this would assume that this happened, plus her father wasn't her father, or at least married to her mother at the time of her birth. All those factors happening at once seem unlikely, though still a slight possibility. It might be worth investigating, especially if no other leads pan out.

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:08 am
by MoVidger
Probably another redundant offering, but there four Oliver baptisms in Kennington on 5 May 1850.
Parents are George & Fanny Oliver. Occupation: Gardener. Abode: Chapel Street.

George William (b 1840)
Thomas Henry (b 1842)
Elizabeth Mary (b 1846)
William (b 1850)

With the exception of "missing" William, the older children's ages match those in the 1851 census you referenced for your Oliver family, residing in Lambeth at the time. Fortunately, George's occupation appears to be consistently "gardener" in the baptism records and census reports. I've searched the 1861 census using just "George" and "gardener", but no luck spotting your George (and family). Could there be missing 1861 census pages for the Southwark area?

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:39 am
by Robbie J N
From the 1841 census - George Oliver 35, Elizabeth Oliver 55 (probably Elizabeth Anning, George's mother-in-law), George Oliver (Jr) 15 months, Fanny Anning 26 (probably Fanny/Frances Oliver, nee Anning), William Anning 3 (probably William Oliver), Henry Anning 1 (probably Henry Oliver).
From the 1851 census - George Oliver 45, Fanny Oliver 33, George William Oliver 11, Thomas Henry Oliver 8, Elizabeth Mary Oliver 4, Elizabeth Anning 63.

Birth dates from GRO & Christening records:
George William Oliver - 1840 Q1 South Stoneham Union (22nd February 1840),
Thomas Henry Oliver - 1842 Q1 St Luke Middlesex (13th February 1842),
Henry James Oliver - 1844 Q3 St Luke Middlesex,
Elizabeth Mary Oliver - 1846 Q3 Marylebone (5th July 1846),
Maria Oliver - 1848 Q4 Gravesend & Milton,
William Oliver - (25th March 1850),
Maria Oliver - 1851 Q2 Lambeth,
Frederick Richard Oliver - 1854 Q3 Camberwell,
Robert James Oliver - 1857 Q1 Camberwell.

A few of the names and ages on the 1841 census don't really match the names and ages from the 1851 census and the GRO. I don't seem to be able to find a marriage record for George and Frances so that might explain some things.
Thanks again for the help. I hope we can find out a few more things to help clarify that these people are a single family.

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:26 pm
by MoVidger
# 4 - This could be daughter Elizabeth Mary Oliver in the 1861 census. Birthplace is St John's Wood.

1861 census: 1, Rye Terrace, Camberwell, London & Surrey, England
Head of household: Thomas Cash, born 1828
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Oliver
Relationship Servant
Marital status Unmarried
Sex Female
Age 14
Birth year 1847
Occupation House Servant
Birth town St John's Wood
Birth town as transcribed ST JOHNS WOOD
Birth county Middlesex

In 1871, there's an Elizabeth Mary Oliver (born 1846), Occupation: shop assistant.
Address: 54 Hercules Buildings, Lambeth (visitor). Birthplace: Bath Rd, City Rd, Middlesex.

This lady marries a William George Glasspool in 1872 in Southwark, and can be found in census reports 1881 to 1911. Possible death: 1917 in Bristol (age 70).

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:42 pm
by Robbie J N
Thank you for the marriage reference for 1872. On the church record, Maria Oliver is listed as one of the witnesses. Comparing her signature to her own marriage record in 1880, at the same church in St Mary Newington, I think it looks similar enough to be the same person, especially the capital 'M' in Maria. I think that must be enough of a connection that these pre-1851 and post-1851 families must be the same. How many gardeners called George Oliver from Hampshire can be married to a woman called Frances from Wiltshire?
Without actually finding the census record from 1861, I think this has probably solved this problem sufficiently. Thanks again.

Only 4 out of 5 left to go!

Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:18 pm
by MoVidger
#1 and #2 - I have a question for clarity: You say that Elizabeth Parsons "mother's name is always Annie Jane Edwards". What sources confirm this? Without a birth record yet for Elizabeth, nor her parents' marriage, how do you know her mother was definitely Annie Jane? Obviously the 1871 census would show the two women together, but Annie Jane died in 1870, correct? Just curious. :)