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Simple Question

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Simple Question

Postby tovey89 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:36 pm

Hello,

This is probably not an original question and perhaps, it has been answered several times throughout the forum, so forgive me for asking this.

I would like to locate, if its possible, a Military Service record for a First World War Soldier, Private Frank Tovey, who was part of the 1/4th Leicestershire Regiment and died of his wounds in France/Flanders on 17th May 1917. I have his medal records but not what he and/or his battalion did until his death.

I was given a detailed "particulars of the military service record" for one of my other ancestors that was applied for in 1996 before the internet.

I have tried to google and look at the MOD website but, for me, the information is quite confusing as all I would like is the application form and where to get that form.

I do understand that some of the records was destroyed but I also wonder how long is the process is as I know it can take some time for them to locate it.

Many Thanks.
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Re: Simple Question

Postby ColinB » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:53 pm

WW1 service records are not with MOD and their is no application form . All surviving service records for NCOs and other ranks, which are held by TNA , are available online at ancestry.co.uk. ( It is WW2 records which are still with MOD. )

Colin

This page at TNA gives guidance on how to find various types of record, including military :


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... efault.htm
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Re: Simple Question

Postby junkers » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:55 pm

The War Diary for the 1/4 Leicestershire Regiment (WO 95/2690/1) is held at The National Archives (TNA), Kew. I thought all of the War Diaries had been digitised but this is not. It is actually not correct to say that the MOD have not got the First World War records (although it won't help in your case as your ancestor died) but if you ancestor was a Private for example and served after 1920 then his record would still be held by MOD in Glasgow.
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Re: Simple Question

Postby ColinB » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:14 pm

I did not think it necessary to confuse matters by stating that the records for those serving after 1920 are still with MOD as tovey89 has already stated that the man in question died in 1917 !

Colin
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Re: Simple Question

Postby tovey89 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:56 pm

Thanks for your help.
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Re: Simple Question

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:31 pm

tovey89 wrote:I would like to locate, if its possible, a Military Service record for a First World War Soldier, Private Frank Tovey, who was part of the 1/4th Leicestershire Regiment and died of his wounds in France/Flanders on 17th May 1917. I have his medal records but not what he and/or his battalion did until his death.


To understand the basics of how to research a Great War soldier, go to "The Long, Long Trail" web-site on http://www.1914-1918.net/. Unfortunately, something like 2/3 to 3/4 of the personnel records for WW1 soldiers were destroyed in WW2. Those that remain are known as
    "The Burnt Records" (they are what remains from the warehouse in question - some of them are, ahem, burnt round the edges), and,

    The "Pension Records" (they aren't pension records, they are the same sort of staff records but some were held by the Pensions people for reasons unknown so missed the fire. They are only a fraction of those soldiers with pensions)

Those two sets are available on Ancestry.co.uk. To save you the trouble, while there are various records for people named Frank Tovey (including a full set of records for Sidney Frank Tovey of 100 Wilberforce Rd, Leicester - any relation?), I cannot find anything for your chap.

Also available (and this time complete) are the Medal Index Cards, which index entries in the Medal Rolls. Your chap has a card in there, showing that he (or his family) were issued with the Victory and Great War campaign medals. MICs are a/v on Ancestry (in colour) or on the UK National Archives web-site (in black-and-white).

In the absence of staff records, it may still be possible to get some idea of what Frank Tovey did.

His medals show that he didn't go abroad until after 1 Jan 1916.

The next thing is to try and locate someone with vaguely similar numbers to him who were also in the 4th Battalion of the Leicesters (1/4th, 2/4th - it doesn't matter, they all used the same series) and whose papers do survive. Doing this is a pain... Frank had 4954 and 201452 as numbers (taken from the Medal Index Card). I did find a Collin Adcock, 5411 in the 4th Bn, and he was recruited on 26 October 1915. That puts your Frank no later than October 1915 for his recruitment. More usefully (because closer) is Dennis William Allen 5105 of the 4th Bn who signed up on 11 August 1915. So in 2 months, they recruited 300 into the 4th. Frank is about 150 earlier, so a guess would suggest he (no. 4954) was recruited about a month (or 150-ish numbers) before no. 5105, suggesting he volunteered some time about July 1915, plus or minus a month or two. This sort of estimation is not an exact science.

As for his regiment - see http://www.1914-1918.net/leicesters.htm The 1/4th Bn entered France in March 1915 so Frank is clearly a later reinforcement (remember, his medals tell us he got out there in 1916 or later). DW Allen crossed to France into the 1/4th in April 1916, so we could guess Frank went out in Spring 1916.

Look at the section on that page for the 1/4th - they were part of the 46th (North Midland) Division, so you then need to look up the 46th Division (see http://www.1914-1918.net/46div.htm ) and there you will get a rough idea of roughly where Frank would have served - apparently, it says at the bottom of that page, the 1/4th remained with that Div'n. You can then look for regimental histories of the Leics to get a more specific view.

That gives you a starter!
Adrian
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Re: Simple Question

Postby tovey89 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:58 pm

Thanks for those pointers. It has helped me a lot and gave me a rough idea of what happened.
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Re: Simple Question

Postby Millst » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:37 pm

I have been looking for a war diary of the 151st Field Co., Royal Engineers for 1914-18. I have located them in the National Archives but they are not digitised. I ordered them and they are sending me a section - 1916 Battle of the Somme (I think). The whole diary would cost too much.
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