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Who is the father?

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Who is the father?

Postby michelcoz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:27 pm

My grandfather Ernest Edward Oliver (called Bert/Albert by his family) born in Bermondsey in 1883 gives his father as William Henry Oliver (Tin Man) on his marriage certificate but I have never been able to find a birth certificate the corresponds with this information. When I asked my uncle, who sadly passed away in May aged 90, he recalled Ernest's mother being a Harwood. I then found that one of the birth certificates I had corresponded with this information, although the father's name was Henry Richard Oliver (iron worker) and Mother Caroline Harwood. How can I be sure this is definitely the right father?
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby KarenQld » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:52 am

On the marriage (January 1880) of Henry Richard Oliver and Caroline Ann Harwood it shows Henry as a Labourer.

In the 1881 census, following the year of , it shows Henry as a Tin Man; Caroline is born in Scotland, their ages match the marriage well enough, Caroline being a few years younger. By then they have a son William 3, and Elizabeth 9mths both born in Bermondsey. As they were unmarried at the time of the marriage, it would seem William was born prior their marriage.

These details would seem to tie in with your information on both counts. Sometimes names are not always recorded exactly. The father of Henry (deceased at the time of marriage) is William as well he had a brother William, so this may have caused some confusion.
I would always rather rely on the memory of a 90 uncle than a certificate! They've always proved quite reliable for me!
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby sdup26 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:33 pm

A tree on ancestry has Edward Ernest Oliver born 1883 in Bermondsey, baptised Lady Margaret Church, Southwark 2/9/1885. The baptism entry is on London Births & Baptisms, and shows father William, a bricklayer, mother Sarah Jane, address 75 Rooney Road.

Edward married Kate McDonald in Southwark, 1901. The marriage certificate is on London Marriages and Banns, showing both were 18, and naming the groom as Ernest Edward Oliver, dyer, father William Henry, tin man.

I don’t know if this helps, or confuses your search!
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby michelcoz » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:15 pm

Thank you for your help, I think I do need to rely on my uncle's memory. :roll:

KarenQld wrote:On the marriage (January 1880) of Henry Richard Oliver and Caroline Ann Harwood it shows Henry as a Labourer.

In the 1881 census, following the year of , it shows Henry as a Tin Man; Caroline is born in Scotland, their ages match the marriage well enough, Caroline being a few years younger. By then they have a son William 3, and Elizabeth 9mths both born in Bermondsey. As they were unmarried at the time of the marriage, it would seem William was born prior their marriage.

These details would seem to tie in with your information on both counts. Sometimes names are not always recorded exactly. The father of Henry (deceased at the time of marriage) is William as well he had a brother William, so this may have caused some confusion.
I would always rather rely on the memory of a 90 uncle than a certificate! They've always proved quite reliable for me!
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby michelcoz » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:19 pm

sdup26 wrote:A tree on ancestry has Edward Ernest Oliver born 1883 in Bermondsey, baptised Lady Margaret Church, Southwark 2/9/1885. The baptism entry is on London Births & Baptisms, and shows father William, a bricklayer, mother Sarah Jane, address 75 Rooney Road.

Edward married Kate McDonald in Southwark, 1901. The marriage certificate is on London Marriages and Banns, showing both were 18, and naming the groom as Ernest Edward Oliver, dyer, father William Henry, tin man.

I don’t know if this helps, or confuses your search!


I think this tree is a second cousins. Although they have my grandfather and grandmother correct (Ernest and Kate), I am pretty sure the baptism is wrong from Edward Ernest but I will check again as you never know. Thank you for your help
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby Charlilu » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:41 pm

Hello. and sorry this is quite long.

I came across what everyone else and you did, however, not knowing which certificates you have bought or indeed used to verify information, and indeed which tree is yours on ancestry; I think its worth mentioning a couple things.

After searching records and reading the replies (here and on the other) I checked out the family trees, and noted that some of them had 5th Feb 1883, 11 Amelia Row, Bermondsey, but used the death index and marriage banns as the source EVEN though the exact birthday isn't mentioned on any of them, THUS they must have info you/we don't ie the certificate or baptism record, so you should contact them - for example Oliver/Dawdry Tree by sevmek6.
Now as usual no 'same' family tree is the same, at least one has added several extra children (for Ernest/Kate) to the 3 you mentioned. And some differ between Ernest's mother's name. But other than that the rest is fairly similar. And also the above tree I mentioned has Caroline Anne Hayward as the mother.

The other thing, and I know you have been on ancestry, but have you ever been on find-my-past?
Just I looked on there, and I have no credits, but there are 2 Ernest Edward Oliver, 1880 AND 1883 St Olave Bermondsey ... perhaps you have it, perhaps you don't, but the St Olave correlated with something I read on here. You need to buy credits to view the index info, then order it as usual.
I have often found things on findmypast which are not on ancestry (and vice versa) but ancestry is way better.
Other than that, try the local county record office (someone mentioned the Met) but who ever has this parish set, it may be that they need to be updated on ancestry.

Also go on the British Newspaper archive, as births are often announced in the papers, plus you may find out lots of other things on there too. Though their credit system is restrictive, you should get free credits when you first sign up.

After a while I found the 1911 census for them as Elbert Oliver etc, which I then subsequently found on the various trees (that'll teach me for diving in without looking first), now as part of a google search I typed in "Ernest Edward Oliver"+McDonald and at the top was a discussion mostly referring to Kate McDonalds side of the family, but it mentioned (like the census states "Street Hawker" which is a pedlar) that she had a market stall down tower bridge, and what her sisters sold. And as Elbert/Albert was listed as a New/s Vendor I thought it was interesting as I'm sure you would need a licence for such things thus you may be able to trace them through that, nothing to do with his father of course, sorry, but it is still fascinating.

My great grandfather also interchanged his 2 Christian names throughout the census and other records, making it very hard to refine search results.
I also know that little white lies can be told on a birth certificate if it saved face, ie my other great grandfather's certificate has his mother as 'Mrs Banks, late Emmerson, formerly Cooper', yet she is a single parent in the next few census bring him up as an Emmerson (with the actual Emmerson children) because she was actually a widow having this child out of wedlock, so lied about being married so that the church/registrar wouldn't haul the father (who may even have a wife) in to prove paternity, yet reverted him to Emmerson in the census so he wouldn't stand out or draw attention to her 'shameful' act.
This is essentially what I was told by one of the WDYTYA experts.

And I bring it up because, and I mean no disrespect as this is your great grandmother, but is it possible that William Henry and Henry Richard are brothers and perhaps Caroline had a fling? and admitted it, so a different name is on the records?

anyway good luck, let us know if you find success.
kind regards
Charlii
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby Charlilu » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:50 pm

ooops ...correction Caroline Anne Harwood not Haywood.
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Re: Who is the father?

Postby michelcoz » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:16 am

Have now confirmed that Ernest's father was indeed Henry Richard Oliver.

Thank you for all your help
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