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Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimate???

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Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimate???

Postby Kymbers » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:54 pm

Really stuck trying to find my dad's Grandmother & Great Grandmother as the first census they appear on is 1901 @ 10 Mill Street, Church, lancashire as follows:

James Edwin Hill - 62
Marion Hill - 38 - B. London, Finsbury
Alice Josephine Martin - 17 - B. London, Leytonstone
Herbert Hill - 4
Lilian Hill - 3
William Bernard Hill - 2months

Marion married James 1st May 1895 - St Mathews Church, Burnley. Former name is McConochie and states she's widowed. Her age is down as 33 and there's no father's name or occupation just lines through this section. I thought perhaps the lines might be ditto as her husband only has deceased where father's name should be and a line through occupation or do the lack of names mean they are both illegitimate?

Can't find Marion on any other census or a birth record for her but doing the maths between Marriage (May 1st 1895) and census (March 30th 1901) I worked out she must have been born in April 1862, if the census and marriage cert are correct.

Alice Josephine Martin (Marion's first born) married William Almond 1st July 1906 @ St James Church Kirk, Church, lancashire. The certificate states her father is Charles Joseph Martin (deceased) occupation Joiner. I can't find any record of her birth or her mother marrying her father. Really lost for where to search next and what to look for. Help, please. :(

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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby Sylcec » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:02 am

Marion Hill, formerly McConochie, nee? - yes, I'm afraid the indication from her marriage certificate to James Edward Hill is that she was illegitimate. The situation with regard to James Hill's father is more ambiguous, by saying his father is deceased but not naming him could mean pretty well anything!

Alice Josephine Martin should have been relatively easy to find, however, I note that on the 1901 census, there is no indication of a middle name. Presumably this appears on her marriage cert. (If they were R.C. could 'Josephine ' have been a baptismal or confirmation name added later but not part of her birth registered name?) I did a first name search for Alice J in Essex *1883-1884 on Free BMD and there were plenty of "Alice Jane" and even a couple of "Alice Jessie" but no Alice Josephines.
*Leytonstone is in Essex, so her birth should be registered in that county. These are the Alices:
Births Jun 1882 Martin Alice Braintree 4a 519
Births Sep 1882 Martin Alice Lucy Edmonton 3a 316
Births Mar 1883 MARTIN Alice Romford 4a 309
Births Jun 1883 MARTIN Alice Martha B. Stortford 3a 417
Births Sep 1883 Martin Alice W.Ham 4a 164
Births Dec 1884 Martin Alice Maud Romford 4a 318


The birth at W.Ham reg Sep 1883 is most likely asa this takes in parish of Leyton.

Also consider that 'Marion' may once have been Mary Ann[e]!
Hopefully Brian or Colin will come up with something else.
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby ColinB » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:18 am

Morning !

I had a look at this yesterday and it does seem rather confusing. As Sylvia says , on the face of
it Alice Josephine Martin should be straightforward. I searched for her father , Charles Joseph ,sawyer , on the 1881 Census and cannot find any obvious candidates. I found the following
for a Maryann McConochie on the 1881 Scotland Census which might be worth bearing in mind :

Archd McCONOCHIE head 53 plumber
Hannah wife 52
Maryann dau 19
Robert H D son 21
James S D 13
Maggie H 11
In Kirkaldy , Fifeshire

If Maryann/ Marion was married to Charles Jospeph Martin , then presumably her maiden name
was McConochie so the above might fit ????

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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby callbrian » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:48 am

Hi
I think this is your Alice and as posted already by Sylvia & Colin, it shows the mother as Mary Ann not Marion, also the fathers names are transposed. This birth would tie up with Sylvia's posting.
Name: Alice Martin
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Aug 1883
Baptism/Christening Place: Holy Trinity, Harrow-Green, Essex, England
Father's Name: Joseph Charles Martin
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Martin
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I02352-9
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1564142
Reference Number: item 4 p 29

I have had a quick look for a marriage and death for Joseph Charles Martin without any success so far.

Brian
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby Kymbers » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:05 pm

Sylvia, Colin, Brian,

Thank you. I did have a look last night & came accross Mary Ann Richards B 4th April 1862 who's father was Archibald McConochie and mother Hannah Chisholm. I had though that it may be her especially if she was illegitimate, the Finsbury part on 1901 census could be a red herring. Perhaps she lived there for a while when she married Alice's father? If this is really Marion that I found on family search .org then it looks like she has 6 siblings. As for Alice's father I though perhaps he might be the Charles Joseph Martin B.5th November 1862, Gosport, Alverstoke, Hampshire 2b 465. Father Charles Martin & mother Frances Eliza Hubsdell. Thought perhaps I might have found his death A/M/J 1887 aged 25 - 2b 283, Portsea Island, Hampshire. I also scribbled down a note about a possible marriage but it very vauge (was a while ago) O/N/D/ 1882 London Middlesex 1c 39? Think I'll have to send for the certificates to be certain though.

Thanks again,

Kymbers :)
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby Sylcec » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:54 pm

I think that Brian has probably cracked it! I searched to see if there were any more children of Joseph Charles and Mary Ann Martin (but without being too fussy whether middle names were mentioned or not), and came up with this family group in the 1881 census:
Name: Joseph Martin
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Where born: Canning Town, Essex, England
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Martin
Civil parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Street Address: 44 Trinity St Trinity Terrace
Occupation: Carman
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 10a
Piece: RG11/1712, Folio: 27A, Page Number: 44
Household Members:
Joseph Martin 24
Mary Ann Martin 21
Mary Ann Martin 3
Joseph Martin 1
Alice Stephenson 19
Alice Stephenson

Alice Stephenson is described as sister in law, i.e. Mary Ann Martin's sister - so it would be quite reasonable for another child of the couple to be named after her.
Cheers, Sylvia
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby Sylcec » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:04 am

This is the marriage of the couple mentioned in my previous post:
Marriages Mar 1877
Martin Joseph W. Ham 4a 75
Stephenson Mary Ann W. Ham 4a 75
(which also of course shows that Alice Stephenson was not married, contrary to her claim on the 1881 census!)
On the other hand I think that I have found the same family in the 1891 census in Tottenham, Joseph is now a Coal Porter and yes they do have a daughter Alice, but she is only 1 year old! So - apologies, think that I have started a wild goose chase!
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby callbrian » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:47 am

Hi.
Oh Sylvia !
I thought how did I miss this is in the 1881 census? The Alice Martin I posted was born and/or baptised in 1883. So it doesn't seem to be the correct family.
I still think that the 1883 Alice is probably 'Kymbers' missing one.

Brian
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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby ColinB » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:28 pm

Hello again,

I don't think Mary Anne , dau Archibald and Hannah , was illegitimate. The record on familysearch
says :
Archibald Mcconochie,​ Hannah Chisholm

name: Mary Anne Richards Mcconochie
gender: Female
birth date: 04 Apr 1862
birthplace: KIRKCALDY,FIFE,SCOTLAND
father's name: Archibald Mcconochie
mother's name: Hannah Chisholm
indexing project (batch) number: C11442-1
system origin: Scotland-ODM
source film number: 6035516
I found the family on the 1871 Scotland Census :

Archd McCANOCHIE 43 , Plumber employing 7 men and boys , b Kirkaldy
Hannah 42 wife
Jessie 15
Archd 13
Robert 11
Maryanne 8
James 3
Maggie 1

If this is the right family for Maryanne McConochie ,ScotlandsPeople has the will of Archibald
MacConochie 12/03/1892 , Plumber & Gasfitter of High Street, Kirkaldy , available to view
for £5 - it runs to 7 pages so could be rather informative.

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Re: Alice Josephine Martin & Marion McConochie - Illegitimat

Postby Kymbers » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:42 pm

Thanks Colin,

I've checked out the will and although it's interesting it just lists all his assets / debts and leaves everything to Mrs Hannah Chisholm or Mrs McConochie. I'm guessing they might not have been legally married with references to both. I'm still at a dead end with Marion & Alice. Is it possible that not all records for Essex have been transcribed? I even thought perhaps they had been in one of the work houses as they appear to be illigitimate but haven't found any evidence as yet

Regards

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