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A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others
Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:00 am
I have a brick wall with my great great grandmother that I hoping someone out there may be able to help me with - either advice or information.
My great great grandmother, Dorothy Graham, left Belfast on the 8 June 1875 and arrived in Auckland, New Zealand on 8 September 1875 on the Carisbrook Castle. She married my great great grandfather on 20 November 1877 and had 8 children, of which I have all the information. On the first few birth certificates it stated her birth place was unknown, then on the next few it states 'Ireland', finally on the last two children's birth certificates it states Dorothy's birth place was Armagh, Ireland. No further information was given on either her marriage or death certificates.
Following discussions with my mother and her second cousins, I discovered there was a Imelda Cameron in Australia who everyone thought was related but no one knew how. On tracing this woman's line back I found her grandmother was Hannah Mary Graham. On Hannah's marriage certificate she states she is from Armagh, Ireland, and her parents are John Graham and Hannah Courtney. Hannah Mary arrived in Australia in 1855. (Her family line has now died out so no one to ask) I have now found a photo of both Hannah Mary and Dorothy Graham taken probably in the early 1920's but whether in NZ or Australia we are unsure. We are presuming they are sisters but there is a big age difference. Hannah Mary was born somewhere between 1839 and 1842 (Her death certificate says she was 85 when she died (b 1839), but her marriage certificate says she was 16 when she married (b 1842). Dorothy was born in 1852.
Ok, my questions. How can I trace them in Ireland? Armagh is a big place and Graham is a common name. If these two ladies are sisters, there is at least 10 years between them and I would presume that there would be other siblings, but I have no luck finding them either. Any clues on expanding this line of the family would be gratefully received. I have been working on this brick wall for many years with little success.
Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:39 pm
Hi there Kiwi
First question - what was Dorothy's religion? I am hoping you may say "Presbyterian"
If so - then next one is: do you know the names of Dorothy's parents? This information is probably available on her NZ marriage and death certificates.
As Protestant marriages in Ireland were registered from 1845 I would hope that you will be able to identify her parents' marriage in the indexes and get a copy of the certificate.
You could also try looking for a will or administration record for Dorothy's parents (and even Hannah Mary's parents). PRONI have these freely available to search and download from 1858. http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Also, please use the new FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/
site - there is a wealth of new information, including Irish records searchable on-line, which is not available on the old familysearch site.
Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:37 am
Thanks Sylvia, unfortunately Dorothy's parents are not listed on either her marriage nor her death certificate. There is nothing on the marriage certificate and 'not known' on the death certificate. The only names I have are off Hannah Mary's marriage certificate, and I had no luck searching for them as they were probably married before Hannah was born (1839-42).
Also it appears that Armagh records don't appear on Family Search online. I have also tried the Irish online site similar to ScotlandsPeople but Armagh has not got any records on there either.
It is like Dorothy didn't want anyone to know about her background, not even her husband.
Oh well, I will put her aside again and hope that sometime down the track records in Armagh become available.
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 am
I think I have the other half of information your looking for. Please text me.
Your the other half of my family. Graham Ireland is my great grandfather, he had a wife, an 9 children, but the mother disappeared, both of them were in nz when they had they're children my pop peter, is graham ireland:'s son. One of those 9 children you spoke of...I'm absolutely sure, we speak of the same young lady from Ireland. Nobody would ever know who she truely was, due to her bloodline. For any educated Christian or catholic then cause threat to her life.
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:04 am
I believe her sister, came to her aid, after having 8 kids she would of had post natal depression, an her husband was an alcoholic. I also believe, her sister took her back to where they came from for some sort of mental health reason. Really. She just couldn't stay anywhere long term. She left 9 kids by themselves, not just 8
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:56 am
Hi, perhaps you have already seen the following?https://www.ancestry.ca/boards/thread.a ... rm.general
andhttps://www.ancestry.ca/family-tree/per ... 6871/facts
It mentions Hannah Mary was confirmed at St. Mark's (Church of Ireland) in Grange, Armagh in 1852.
It might be worth writing to also ask if they have a record of Dorothy? Unfortunately, I can't find those records online anywhere.https://www.stmarksarmagh.org/genealogy-search
I also couldn't find any record of marriage between John Graham and Hannah Courtney (various spellings).
I did find, however, the marriage of John Graham and Alice Courtney, daughter of Clements in Armagh (Church of Ireland) in 1871 on RootsIreland. Clements may have married first in 1830 so am guessing he was born around 1800-1810. He was the son of John. Unfortunately, I can't find any record of Clements' baptism. Have you tried contacting the Courtenay Society?
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