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Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

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Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Joy Dean » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:53 pm

The GRO indexes have been searched, but the registration is not there. I know that sometimes deaths have not been registered, having found more than one occurrence of that.

I have posted on other forums, in rootsweb mailing lists for Kent and for Suffolk, have written another article for the Suffolk Family History Society's magazine about my Suffolk-related ancestral family, and am now posting here in case anyone can help.

Mary was born Mary Ann Sadd 28 October 1821 in Little Glemham, Suffolk, daughter of Jonathan and Sarah Sadd. She was christened 9 December 1821 at St Andrew’s, Little Glemham. She is a sister of my ancestor Philip Sadd,

She married Amos Fletcher 31 May 1841 at St Andrew’s. Their children were:

Nancy : 1841 - 1842, christened and buried at St Peter’s, Charsfield.

William: born in 1842, Charsfield, he married Louisa Butt in London in 1866, they had two daughters; he died in 1872 and was buried in Brockley Cemetery, south east London.
In census: 1851 census age 9, Woodbridge Union Workhouse in Nacton, Suffolk, 1861 census Bricklayer, age 17, b at Leiston., at the home of an aunt and uncle, Emma and Thomas Horn, 1871 census Bricklayer, age 28, with his wife, their daughters, her parents and brother, and William’s cousin Eunice Sadd, with her daughter, in Lambeth.

Arthur : born in 1844, Charsfield, he married Emma Twelves in Deptford in 1865, they had one son and two daughters; he, also, died in 1872 and was buried in Brockley Cemetery.
In census: 1851 census age 6, Woodbridge Union Workhouse in Nacton., 1861 census age 16, with his mother and stepfather, stepfather's daughter and mother, and brother Trelawny, in Deptford, 1871 census transcribed Alfred, Plater, age 26, with his wife, son and daughters, in Bromley-by-Bow.

Mary’s husband Amos Fletcher was born about 1811, he died 25 August 1846 and was buried at Charsfield.
In census: 1841 census Bricklayer, age 25, with his wife Mary, brother and sister-in-law, Richard and Hannah, mother Mary, and William, in Charsfield.


Mary Fletcher had two more children:
Trelawny : born in 1848 in Charsfield, he died in London in 1863, and was buried in Brockley Cemetery.
In census: 1851 census age 3, Woodbridge Union Workhouse in Nacton, 1861 census age 13, with his mother and stepfather, and stepfather's daughter and mother, and brother Arthur , in Deptford.

Lydia: born in 1850 in Nacton. 1851 census age 7 months, Woodbridge Union Workhouse in Nacton. She died in 1856.

In 1851 Mary was a pauper in the workhouse in Nacton with four children.


Mary Fletcher née Sadd married John Dyball 4 December 1856 at St Paul’s, Deptford.

John was born in Scottow, Norfolk. He married his first wife Catherine Birmingham 26 February 1831 at St Paul’s, Deptford, they had seven children. From directories and census after 1831:
Pigots 1839 Directory: John Dyball (wood dealer) in New Row, Deptford.
Pigots 1840 Directory for Deptford: - Shopkeepers & Dealers in Groceries & Sundries. John Dyball, New Row. Wood Merchants & Dealers. John Dyball, New Row.
1841 census Shop keeper, age 34, Catherine, age 28, John, age 9, William, age 5, Samuel, age 2, Elizabeth, age 1, in New Row, Deptford.
1846 London Directory: John Dyball (wood dealer), 15 New Road, Deptford.
1851 Post Office Directory: John Dyball, wood dealer, 15 Prince Street, Deptford.
1851 census Wood Cutter, age 45, with wife Catherine, age 44, son John, Wood Cutter, age 19, son Samuel, Wood Cutter, age 14, son Thomas, Wood Cutter, age 9, daughter Elizabeth, Wood Cutter, age 11, daughter Catherine, age 7, daughter Sarah, age 4 - wife and children all born Deptford, Kent - at Old King Street, St Nicholas, Deptford.
1856 Kellys: John Dyball, firewood dealer, 66 King Street, Deptford High St.
Melvilles 1858 Directory of Kent: Dyball, John, timber merchant, Old King street
1861 census Proprietor of Houses, age 53, with wife Mary, age 38, daughter Sarah A, age 15, widowed mother Sarah, age 77, depending for support on son, born Norfolk, Swanton, stepsons Arthur Fletcher, age 16, Trelawny Fletcher, age 13, at 1 Reginald Street, St Paul's, Deptford.
1871 census Retired Stevedore, age 63, Mary, age 50, daughter Sarah Ann, age 24, at May Cottage 1 Reginald Street, St Paul's, Deptford.
1881 census John Dyballs Retired contractor, age 73, born Scottow, Norfolk, Mary, age 60, born Glemham, Suffolk, with a niece Alice Fletcher, age 13, born Charsfield, Suffolk, at 1 Reginald Road, Deptford St Paul, Kent.

John died 27 May 1885 in Deptford and was buried in Brockley Cemetery. His three stepsons were buried in the same grave as his mother Sarah Dyball, who died in 1862, in Brockley Cemetery.

John's will was proved and administration of his estate was granted to Mary Dyball of May Cottage, widow, Walter Robert Kersey, of 108 High Street, Deptford, solicitor and James George Andrews of the Peter the Great Tavern, Foreign Cattle Market, Deptford, licensed victualler, the executors. Proved 16th July 1885 Gross value of personal estate £4972 3s 1d. Mary was a beneficiary in, and trustee of the will of her husband.
The witnesses to his will were his daughter Eliza Rutherford, Mary’s niece Kate Fletcher, brother and sister-in-law George and Fanny Sadd, and niece Ann Sadd.

John was a wealthy man who left several properties to his wife; from his will, Mary would forfeit everything if she married again. His beneficiaries were Mary, his daughters, Elizabeth Rutherford and Sarah Ann Dyball, and two grandchildren, Catherine Dyball, daughter of his late son Thomas, and Augustus John Dyball, son of his late son Samuel.

I have the details of burials for John, with his son John, and for those of Mary's children who are buried with John's mother, in Brockley Cemetery. There is no record that Mary is buried with John though, according to his will, she should be there. If I can find a date of death registration, then another search will be made for me. His will stipulated that she should be buried with him and it gave the inscriptions that he wanted for her and for himself.


In 1891, John's daughter Elizabeth Rutherford is living at 1 Reginald Road with her husband and their children. Widowed Caroline Smith (informant on the death certificate of John, and who is a sister of Mary) is next door. 1 Reginald Road is one of the houses that was left to Mary.

In 1891 there is a Mary Dyball born Suffolk in Camberwell, but the wrong age.

There is a death registration for a Mary Ann Daybell in 1895; I sent for the death certificate forgetting to stipulate that she be the widow of John Dyball and, unfortunately, it was not for my Mary.

There is a death registration for a Mary Ann Fletcher in 1895, Greenwich district; I have sent an email to the register office asking if she was the widow of John Dyball, just in case it was registered in her maiden name in error. However, a while ago I was told that this particular register office staff were not doing searches.

Mary’s grandson Amos Henry Fletcher married in Dublin and stayed there. Because of this, I have searched Irish records but cannot find her there.

I have looked at all Mary Ann and Mary names born in Suffolk in census and discounted them all, having compared them with marriage and census records, and have even searched the Scotland’s People site. I have searched probate records and cannot find a will made by her.


Finally, I cannot find a remarriage registration either just in case she inherited and then remarried though, somehow, I doubt that she would have done that.

Someone reading this may be a member of Mary’s family and know what happened to her. I do hope so.

Thank you for reading this.

Joy
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby callbrian » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:10 am

Hello Joy,
You have certainly achieved quite a lot.
Have you seen or considered:
Deaths Dec 1910 Dyball Mary A 88 Aylsham 4b 48
Aylsham is in the Norfolk registration area, this Mary would be about the correct age.
Good Luck
Brian
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Joy Dean » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:43 am

Thank you, Brian, for searching for her. Yes, I saw her and traced her ancestry and, unfortunately, she is not my Mary.

The reason why I am tracing Mary's life story is because of the inscription on my great-great-great-grandparents' gravestone:

"In affectionate memory of
JONATHAN SADD
who died May 4th 1874 aged 84 years.
Oh the sweet joy this sentence gives,
I know that my redeemer lives.
In affectionate memory of
SARAH SADD
who died February 7th 1852 aged 62 years.
We part in hope to meet again.
Erected by their daughter Mary Ann Dyball."

Ever since a photograph of the gravestone was sent to me, I have wanted to find out about their daughter Mary.
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby meekhcs » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:50 am

Joy

I was very intrigued by your original post and I have searched Ancestry, IGI and one or two other places and I cannot find Mary in subsequent census returns after John's death or a death record for her.
I note you say that John Dyball is buried in Brockley Cemetery and that Mary should be buried there too. Have you searched the cemetery records or paid for a researcher to do so.

I looked at the 1891 census entry in Camberwell. The address is 68 Uplands Rd St John's Camberwell and Mary is listed as a widow occupying 3 rooms. Do you know if this is one of the properties John Left? It could just be that her age was wrongly transcribed.

As you say the record has to be there somewhere and it is going to be a very slow process of elimination. Either she did remarry or there is probably a transcription error (or 2!!) involved.
Sally
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Joy Dean » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:17 pm

Thank you, Sally, for searching, too.

The Head of Bereavement Services, Lewisham Crematorium kindly looked for the burial records for me. I think that some of them long ago are not easy to read so she has to be given a date of death, or an approximate date.

She said that, as far as she knew, there are only two burials in John Dyball's grave. Apparently, at the time of the purchase, a cross is put for each burial and there are only two crosses by the side of it. It has been known to be left off, but rarely.
I have seen his gravestone - The wording "THE FAMILY GRAVE OF JOHN DYBALL." is only just legible and, sadly, the stone is broken. I should like to think that Mary is there with him.

As far as I can see, reading my transcription of John's will again, John owned most of the houses in Reginald Road, Deptford, and two other properties in Deptford. It is possible that Mary invested in property herself and bought that house in Camberwell; there again, maybe that Mary is not her at all! Though I have not been able to trace that particular Mary backward in her family.

I knew that Mary's sons were buried in Brockley Cemetery because of the transcription on the gravestone of Mary's first husband, in Suffolk, which was very helpful of Mary:

"In Affectionate Memory
of
AMOS FLETCHER
WHO DIED AUGUST 23RD 1846
AGED 34 YEARS.
LORD LET ME YIELD IN PEACE MY BREATH
AND THY SALVATION SEE.
MY SINS DESERVE ETERNAL DEATH
BUT JESUS DIED FOR ME.
______________________

ALSO OF WILLIAM FLETCHER
WHO DIED JANUARY 5TH 1872 AGED 29 YEARS.
NOT DEAD BUT SLEEPETH.

ALSO ARTHUR BROTHER OF THE ABOVE
WHO DIED FEBRUARY 1ST 1872 AGED 29 YEARS.
WE PART IN HOPE TO MEET AGAIN.

AND ALSO TRELAWNEY THEIR BROTHER
WHO WAS DROWNED IN THE RIVER THAMES
APRIL 17TH 1863 AGED 15 YEARS.
IN THE MIDST OF LIFE WE ARE IN DEATH.

WILLIAM, ARTHUR AND TRELAWNEY
ARE INTERRED IN BROCKLEY CEMETERY."

It is possible that her death was not registered; the death was not registered for Mary's son William, but it was for her other two sons.
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby meekhcs » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:50 pm

Joy
I wonder if a search through the parish records for the churches in Deptford would throw anything up regarding Mary's death, presumably the service would have been held there IF she was buried in Brockley cem.
Regards the death of William although the age is incorrect William was living in Lambeth ( CharlotteSt) in 1871 so it is most likely that the death record for a William Fletcher 1872 j-m Lambeth 1d, 321 is him.
Sorry if I'm already suggesting things that you have already done. Sadly I'm not sure if you are going to get to the bottom of this.
Sally
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Joy Dean » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:31 pm

Thank you, Sally.

I wonder why I had discounted that William from the death registrations; probably because the age is slightly wrong and, at that time, I was searching for registrations in the big books at the Family Records Centre in London and on microfiche in a records office. I remember now, in a records office, seeing his brother Arthur's death registration and wondering why his wasn't right next to it as I knew their dates of death from the inscription on their father's gravestone; I remember a member of staff searching that particular quarter on the fiche, too. Also at that time, there weren't the variety of records to be searched on the internet, and I don't think that I had found him in 1881 with his family.

Actually, looking again at census, there are two others named William, age 26 in 1871, in the right sort of area - Southwark - who do not seem to appear in 1881.

I think you are right; the parish records of the Deptford churches will have to be searched.
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Sylcec » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:03 am

How was John Dyball's extensive property eventually disposed of? It looks as if Mary may only have had a life interest in it. However, if she had assets in her own right, then presumably she too will have left a will, or at least had sufficient assets to require Letters of Administration (Admon) to be issued on her death to administer her estate. Have you checked the PPR indexes on Ancestry for her? It could also be worth your while to find the IR26 (or maybe IR27) record of estate duty paid on John's estate as this often has additional information about when and where legacies and the estate in general were disposed of. You will need to go to the National Archives for this.

Even though Mary would have lost her inherited property if she remarried, despite her mature years it is quite possible that she took another partner but did not go through a formal marriage ceremony, thereby complying with the letter but not the spirit of her late husbands will. If this happened, then in due course she may have been known under another name and her death registered under that name.
Good hunting! Sylvia
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby Joy Dean » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:08 am

Thank you, Sylvia. I didn't know about records of estate duty paid.

I have searched the probate records online, and someone had previously kindly searched them up to 1920 at the office at Holborn.

John Dyball's will, although neatly written, not all of it is easy to read.

Here is my synopsis / transcription of his will:

late of May Cottage, Reginald Road, Deptford in the County of Kent, Gentleman.
He died 27th May 1885 at May Cottage. The will was proved and administration of his estate was granted to Mary Dyball of May Cottage, widow, Walter Robert Kersey, of 108 High Street, Deptford, solicitor and James George Andrews of the Peter the Great Tavern, Foreign Cattle Market, Deptford, licensed victualler, the executors. Proved 16th July 1885 Gross value of personal estate £4972 3s 1d.

This is the Last Will and Testament of me John Dyball of May Cottage, Reginald Road, Deptford in the County of Kent, Gentleman ..................

He appointed his wife Mary Dyball, Walter Robert Kersey and James George Andrews, afterwards called his trustees, to be executors. Debts and funeral expenses to be paid out of money in the London and County Bank.

His body and his wife’s body shall be buried in his vault at Brockley Cemetery in the County of Kent. His coffin and his wife’s coffin shall be made with one inch and a half thick of the best oak lined with four pound lead with only one coffin ? and oiled with linseed oil with two strong black handles on each side and black nails, the funeral to be quite plain.

He gave to his wife Mary Dyball the house he lived in, May Cottage on the north side of Reginald Road, Deptford, and all the furniture and everything in the premises at the time of his death, the house is one shilling per annum peppercorn rent. At the death of his wife, the furniture, beds and everything in the premises shall be divided between his two daughters, if they cannot agree, the things shall be sold and the money divided between them. Three months after the death of the longest liver/d, the home shall be sold by public auction and, after expenses are paid, the residue of the money shall be equally divided between his two daughters.

He gave to his wife Mary Dyball four leasehold houses on the north side of Reginald Road numbered 2,4, 6 and 8 nevertheless she paying the ground rent and fulfilling the covenants in the lease. He gave to his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball three leasehold houses on the north side of Reginald Road numbered 10, 12 and 14 nevertheless she paying the ground rent and fulfilling the covenants in the lease. He gave to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford three leasehold houses on the north side of Reginald Road numbered 16, 18 and 20 nevertheless she paying the ground rent and fulfilling the covenants in the lease, her husband to have no control over the property. At the death of his wife, his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball is to have nos 2,4,6,8 and 10 Reginald Road and his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford nos. 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20 Reginald Road. If Sarah Ann Dyball should marry, her husband is to have no control over the money and property.

He gave to his granddaughter Catherine Dyball, daughter of his late son Thomas, living at 26 Orford Street, Wavertree, Liverpool, £700 bought in the three percent consols, Mr Kersey to draw the interest on 5th January in every year and send it to her until she is twenty one years of age, then to employ a broker and sell out and give her the money. He gave to his grandson August John Dyball, son of his late son Samuel, living in Deptford, £800 bought in the three percent consols, he to receive the interest on 5th January in every year. If either his granddaughter or grandson should die, the money shall be equally divided [ difficult to read, could be: his two daughters and his two surviving grandchildren and if both should die the money shall be divided between his wife and his daughters ] between his wife and his ? two daughters,

He gave to his daughter Saran Ann Dyball £500 three percent consols, she to receive the interest on 5th January in every year. If she should marry and have children, the money and property to go to the children, and her husband to have no control over it. He gave to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford £500 in the three percent consols, she to receive the interest on 5th January in every year. If she should die, the money and property shall be left in trust with Mr Kersey for her children until the youngest is twenty years of age. If his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball should die and have no children, her money and property shall be left in trust for the children of his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford and when the youngest is twenty years of age, the property shall be sold and the money equally divided between the children of his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford.

If his executor Walter Robert Kersey should die, then James George Andrews is to perform his duties and both are to receive a reasonable amount for their trouble.

He gave to his wife Mary Dyball £600 in the three percent consols which he had bought for her in her own name to dispose of as she thinks fit.

If the house and slaughterhouse in Wellington Street are not sold during his lifetime, after his death it shall be sold by public auction and after the expenses are paid, the remainder of the money shall be equally divided between his wife, his surviving children and his grandchildren Augustus John Dyball and Catherine Dyball.

If his wife lives the longest, she is to have the control over her own affairs and his burial, she is to draw the money out of the London and County Bank, Broadway, Deptford, she is to pay all expenses and to divide the remainder of the money between herself and his two daughters. If he is the longest lived, his executor Walter Robert Kersey to superintend his funeral and draw the money out of the bank to pay all expenses and divide the remainder of the money between his surviving children.

The following lines to be put on the tablet on his tombstone

Here lay a wife that was both good and kind
And of a loving tender mind
She lived a life of faith and love
? hopes to live in heaven above

and for him:

John Dyball
the Chief of Sinners
But Christ died for me and all mankind

with his name, date and age.

Amounts of money in a/c and dates
stand to the account of his wife and himself. If his wife should marry again, she forfeits all claim to her share. Mr Frederick William Wilson, Stock and Share Broker of No. 2 Copthall Court, Throgmorton Street, Stock Exchange, London.

John signed 21st April 1880. Witnessed by R.J. Stringer and Ann Sadd.


Codicil made 10th November 1881.

John’s wife Mary Dyball and Walter Robert Kersey of High Street, Deptford and James George Andrews at the Peter the Great in the Cattle Market, Licensed Victualler, Deptford, trustees named in his will, and the will is to stand good as it is except the butchers shop in Wellington Street and the slaughter house that is now a dwelling house, both the houses are to be given to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford for the remainder of her life and at her death to be left in trust to Mr Kersey for the benefit of the children of his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford.

He gave no. 15 south side of Reginald Road, occupied by Mrs Sayers, to his wife Mary Dyball so long as she lives and at her death it is to be given to his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball. And if his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball should die then it is to go to his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford and be dealt with as the will states by Mr Kersey. This house was bought by him after his will was made.

Signed by testator and witnesses
John Dyball Eliza Rutherford Kate Fletcher George Sadd Fanny Sadd


On 16th July 1885 Probate of this Will and Codicil was granted to Mary Dyball, widow, Walter Robert Kersey and James George Andrews, the executors.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Bank
The Surrey, Kent and Sussex Banking Company had been established at Southwark in 1836 and soon had branches in places like Croydon, Brighton, Maidstone and Woolwich. It was renamed the London and County Banking Co. in 1839. By 1875 it had over 150 branches and was the largest British bank.


http://www.tolliss.com/gedview/individu ... rimson.ged
Walter Robert Kersey
Birth: 25 June 1838 Deptford, Kent
Death 27 August 1923 (Age 85) The Queens Hotel, Hastings, Sussex
Occupation Solicitor
This corresponds with free BMD death registration September qr 1923 Hastings District age 85.

James George Andrews went from the Peter The Great Pub in the Foreign cattle market to the Admiral Duncan at 503 New Cross Road (near the south end of Deptford High Street). He then moved to 15 Highbury Grove, Islington dying aged 56 in 1908. His estate was valued at £156,188 11s. Given John Dyball's property interests, maybe James Andrews was a business partner rather than merely a friend.

The witness Ann Sadd could be a niece of John’s wife Mary; that is, a daughter of Mary’s brother George and Fanny Sadd.

Mrs Sayers occupying no. 15 Reginald Road is Mary Sears in the 1881 census.

The witnesses - Eliza Rutherford is John’s daughter, Kate Fletcher would be a relative of Mary Dyball (her first husband was Amos Fletcher), George and Fanny Sadd are Mary’s brother and sister-in-law.



The beneficiaries, other than Mary:
his daughter Elizabeth Rutherford died in 1914, his daughter Sarah Ann Dyball died in 1897, his grandson Augustus John Dyball died in 1930, and Catherine Margaret Dyball - I have not yet looked for her death registration - she married a Thomas Jones in 1887, and I have not yet looked for her beyond 1891.
Edit: Have just seen Catherine in 1901 - His Majesty's Prison, Southall Street Cheetham.
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Re: Mary Dyball - I cannot find when nor where she died.

Postby meekhcs » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:37 pm

Hello Again

This all makes fascinating reading and you have carried out a tremendous amount of research.

Following on from the point Sylvia made re wills, it is possible, if Mary made a will, that she used the same solicitor as her husband. Solicitors often archive papers when they cease practising so there may be papers relating to John and Mary still in existence somewhere. It may be worth trying to find out what happened to the solicitors practise. You may even be able to trace it through to the current day as these firms often evolve as new partners are added.

From the will you documented in your last post MAry was left investments in her own name to do with as she pleased. If the Mary in CAmberwell in the 1891 census is your Mary she may have used that money to buy herself a property. I am not sure how you would go about finding that out.

It would be intriguing to know how she got on with her step daughters!
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