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Rupert Penry-Jones

Discuss last year's series of Who Do You Think You Are?, which featured Bruce Forsyth, Dervla Kirwan, Monty Don and six more famous faces as they traced their family trees

Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby ksouthall » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:17 pm

Sylcec wrote:
Article 366(2) of the Indian Constitution defines Anglo-Indian as "a person whose father or any of whose other male progenitors in the male line is or was of European descent but who is domiciled within the territory of India and is or was born within such territory of parents habitually resident therein and not established there for temporary purposes only


The way I have understood the quote Sylvia has provided, it looks like since 1911, Anglo-Indian has meant someone may have Indian ancestry down any one of the female lines and also possibly down some of the male lines; e.g. mother's father could have been Indian, etc. The quote is quite vague as it says "father or any of whose other male progenitors in the male line" which could mean that someone could be mainly Indian with a smattering of English blood.

Does anyone know what it meant before 1911 or was it even more vague, depending on who was writing in the records each time?

One of my ancestors served in India in the 1820s and I would love to find Indian ancestry, like Rupert, but sadly I don't think there's much chance of that as his wife was born in Maidstone according to the censuses.
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby JayneS » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:50 pm

Jayne - the main repository for records of persons serving in India, is the India Office Records at the British Library at St Pancras. However, if your man was in a British Army Regiment (rather than the EIC or Indian Army), then his records will be at the National Archives at Kew.

@Sylvia - thanks for this. I have seen his service record at the National Archives and his Pension Records, which is how I know he had served in India. I need to have a look at the Pay Lists and Muster Rolls in more detail, but the problem is finding time to do all this research. I don't think there will be anything at the British Library as he was in a British Regiment, but you never know.
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby ksouthall » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:14 pm

I also need to look at Pay Lists and Muster Rolls for one of my ancestors but don't really have the time. Does anyone have any idea how long it would take to check them as I was wondering whether or not to pay a researcher to do it for me, if it would not be too expensive?
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby Sylcec » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:15 am

Hi again

Katherine said:
One of my ancestors served in India in the 1820s

In what capacity? Do you know which regiment / which service - was it H.M. or E.I.C. army? Or, was your ancestor employed in some other capacity, such as writer?

Jayne, you said:
I need to have a look at the Pay Lists and Muster Rolls in more detail
- are you sure? You may be able to get substantial information about your ancestor's movements in India by consulting a published regimental history. Same applies to Katherine if her man was in HM Army.

You probably both know that the WO97 (that's 'Chelsea' Pension) records which would apply to your ancestors have now been digitised and can be downloaded from FindMyPast for a fee. Other general sources of information could be digitised newspapers and journals. For the early period, the Asiatic Journal & Monthly Register might be helpful, and for 1840s-1860, Allen's Indian Mail - both are free in Google books or the Internet Archive. However, if your ancestors were enlisted soldiers, don't bother searching for them by name (most unlikely to be mentioned unless subject to a Court Martial), but rather search for their Regiment by number/name, and/or one of the Commissioned Officers in charge of your ancestor's company. This will at least give you an idea of where they were and any action the regiment was involved in.

Cheers
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby ksouthall » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:50 pm

Sylcec wrote:Hi again
Katherine said:
One of my ancestors served in India in the 1820s

In what capacity? Do you know which regiment / which service - was it H.M. or E.I.C. army? Cheers
Sylvia


Hello Sylvia,
Thanks for replying. My 3 x great-grandfather served in India between 28th July 1816 and 27th December 1830. He was a private in the 14th Regiment of Foot. I have a copy of his discharge record, his initial claim for pension and the Waterloo Medal Roll as he had originally enlisted in the 3rd Battalion which served there. I also have a copy of the Regimental History by Captain H. O'Donnell which has helped me build up a very detailed timeline of my ancestor's movements. His daughter, my 2x great-grandmother's birth does not appear to have been registered, so I have been unable to confirm her mother's maiden name or identify the correct marriage for her parents, assuming they were married. I was hoping that a more detailed look at his records might help me to determine whether or not the marriage I have found is the right one; i.e. was he granted leave to get married or did he abscond? I guess I may never know for sure.
He only had 3 children that I am aware of: 1 in 1836, pre-Civil Registration, my great-great-grandmother in 1838 and the youngest in 1854. I have not found a birth certificate or baptism for him either. There may have been others that died young. This is a massive brick wall thatI am trying to knock down.
Do you know if this sort of detail appears in the records?
Katherine
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby Sylcec » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:09 pm

Katherine, to the best of my knowledge, personal information relating to marriage and birth of children does not appear in muster rolls and pay lists.

The places where you might find something - once you have the time to get into it - are embarkation records, and also ships logs. I think that up to 100 wives of soldiers per regiment were allowed to accompany them 'on the strength', but it will usually be older or longer serving soldiers who would benefit from this privilege. However, he may have gone overseas as a single man and married ? in India or wherever - possibilities then are a native or 'indo-briton' woman, or the widow of another soldier in the regiment. Widows didn't stay so for very long at all in India (days or weeks, maybe).

Have you checked the LDS Pilot Record Search for any births/baptisms to your ancestor (name?) in India?. The absence of a find does not mean it didn't happen. The Ship's log (first identify the ship!) if it exists, may be helpful as will record the women and children as individuals if you're lucky. Where to find the log is the next question - could well be at the British Library, Nat Archives, or Nat Maritime Museum.

Oops - just reading back through your message, I see that he left India in 1830 and had children born later than this. Never mind, the above may help someone else.

Actually I have a similar problem - Matthias Walker COLE of Westminster, Sergeant in HM 56th ft heads off to India in 1804 - has a wife with him, but where and when did they marry? He seems to have had a 1 week period of demotion while in Cork for going AWOL, so my theory is that must be when he married! Cheers, S.
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby ksouthall » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:29 pm

Hello again Sylvia,

Thanks for providing more information.

Sylcec wrote:...The places where you might find something.....are embarkation records, and also ships logs. I think that up to 100 wives of soldiers per regiment were allowed to accompany them 'on the strength', but it will usually be older or longer serving soldiers who would benefit from this privilege.


Thanks for this. It gives me another idea to check out. My ancestor was William Crawley. His wife was called Eliza and, according to the censuses, was born in Maidstone in about 1810 or 1811, so, unless she was under age when they married, I suspect they married some time in the early 1830s, after William returned from India. The only marriage I have been able to come up with on the IGI or the new Beta Family Search, is that of a William Crawley and an Eliza Wileton in Andover, Hampshire, on 2nd July 1832. According to the Regimental History, these are the Regiment's movements at that time:-

13th May 1831 – Arrived at Gravesend from India. Marched from Gravesend to Chatham. Remained in Chatham for four months.

26th September 1831 – Embarked in the “Cygnet” for the Isle of Wight. Quartered at the Albany Barracks, Parkhurst.

6th December 1831 – the 14th Regiment crossed over to Gosport, Hampshire, occupying quarters in Haslar Barracks and Fort Monckton.

29th February 1832 – The 14th Regiment went from Gosport to Portsmouth and occupied the Colewort and Fareham Barracks for the next five months.

2nd July 1832 – Possible marriage to Eliza Wileton at Andover, Hampshire. Aged 36.

16th July 1832 – The 14th Regiment embarked for Ireland on H. M. troopship “Jupiter”.

22nd July 1832– The 14th Regiment arrived at Cove in County Cork.

Sylcec wrote:...Have you checked the LDS Pilot Record Search for any births/baptisms to your ancestor (name?) in India?. The absence of a find does not mean it didn't happen. The Ship's log (first identify the ship!) if it exists, may be helpful as will record the women and children as individuals if you're lucky. Where to find the log is the next question - could well be at the British Library, Nat Archives, or Nat Maritime Museum.


As I know the name of the ships (Cygnet and Jupiter), I may be able to check with the National Maritime Museum, plus if William did marry in 1832, he would have had nearly 20 years service so she may have been allowed to travel with him.

I have also checked the GRO indices for British Army Births, Marriages and Deaths abroad, but nothing likely has come up.

As Eliza was about 15 years younger than William, I assume he met her in England, possibly at Chatham before being transferred to the Isle of Wight or after William's return to Chatham in January 1834.

Sylcec wrote:...Actually I have a similar problem - Matthias Walker COLE of Westminster, Sergeant in HM 56th ft heads off to India in 1804 - has a wife with him, but where and when did they marry? He seems to have had a 1 week period of demotion while in Cork for going AWOL, so my theory is that must be when he married! Cheers, S.


This is what I was hoping might appear in the records - a convenient fews days off at the start of July 1832. Alternatively, perhaps William met Eliza between 1834 and 1836, in which case they may have been nonconformists or not married at all.

I have checked the censuses for Andover in 1841 and subsequent years and it does not appear that either Crawley or Wileton is a local name. Wileton appears to be a very unusual name so I have also checked for other spellings; e.g. Wilton, Milton, Hilton, Wilson, etc. The only information I actually know about Eliza is her approximate year and place of birth, although that may or may not be correct as it comes from the censuses. I had hoped that perhaps she was Indian and that they made up the information when the enumerators called, but I think that is wishful thinking.

If the 1832 marriage is not the right one, my only other hope of finding Eliza is to check the baptism record for every Eliza born in Maidstone in 1810 and 1811 and try and trace what happened to each child. (Eliza was 71 years old when she died on 11th March 1871).
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Re: Rupert Penry-Jones

Postby shallet » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:41 am

I really enjoy this series its very interesting and entertaining.
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