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Poor Law and elusive relative

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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:22 pm

clare_bear wrote:William Symonds from 4 Polegrain (the farm) seems to be married to a Grace in the 1891 census. She must have died and then he married Mary. On the 1891 census, along with his wife Grace, there is their daughter Bessie (the very same as on 1901 census, so not Mary's daughter). They're living in Constantine on the 1891 census. It looks like Grace died in 1898. Hilda on the 1901 census is not their child it seems, as her surname is Tremayne - just an entry error saying she is the daughter? They don't seem to be in Pollengrain by 1911.
Clare


If you look closely on the 1901 Census, you will notice that it says "step" between Tremayne and "daughter", so it looks like Hilda was William S Symonds stepdaughter. That suggests she was Mary's daughter from a previous relationship or marriage. This would also explain the large age gap between Bessie and Hilda. It would also fit with William remarrying after Grace died.

The only possible birth record I have seen so far is as follows:-

Name: Mary Jane Tremayne
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Helston
County: Cornwall
Volume: 5c
Page: 168

It does not include Hilda in the name, but she could have been known as Hilda as her mother was also called Mary. Alternatively, this may not be the right birth record.

I will try and find Mary in the 1881 Census, if possible.

Katherine
Last edited by ksouthall on Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ksouthall
 
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:24 pm

ksouthall wrote:
clare_bear wrote:William Symonds from 4 Polegrain (the farm) seems to be married to a Grace in the 1891 census. She must have died and then he married Mary. On the 1891 census, along with his wife Grace, there is their daughter Bessie (the very same as on 1901 census, so not Mary's daughter). They're living in Constantine on the 1891 census. It looks like Grace died in 1898. Hilda on the 1901 census is not their child it seems, as her surname is Tremayne - just an entry error saying she is the daughter? They don't seem to be in Pollengrain by 1911.
Clare


If you look closely on the 1901 Census, you will notice that it says "step" between Tremayne and "daughter", so it looks like Hilda was William S Symonds stepdaughter. That suggests she was Mary's daughter from a previous relationship or marriage. This would also explain the large age gap between Bessie and Hilda. It would also fit with William remarrying after Grace died.

I will try and find Mary in the 1881 Census, if possible.

Katherine


I didn't spot that, thanks Katherine. That all makes sense.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:33 pm

Here are the marriage details for William Spargo Symonds and Mary Tremayne:-

Name: William Spargo Symonds
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Helston
County: Cornwall
Volume: 5c
Page:

Here is William Spargo Symonds probable birth reference:-

Name: William [S_]Pargo Symons
Year of Registration: 1849
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Helston
County: Cornwall
Volume: 9
Page: 123

Thank goodness for unusual middle names. I guess this is a family surname passed down to him.

Katherine
ksouthall
 
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:00 pm

Thanks very much, Katherine. You're right about the middle names being a godsend!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:35 pm

I went to the Who Do You Think You Are Live show on Friday and had a chat with a very helpful lady from the Cornwall Family History Society about Crisilda/Carrie. I explained the William Williams on the birth certificate as the father and she said that there must be loads of William Williams in the region that could be the father of Crisilda and that it was highly unlikely that it was Ethel's father who was Crisilda's father as if he was they just wouldn't have put it on the birth certificate. She acknowledged that that sort of thing happened, but she'd never seen the father's name on the certificate. Interesting.

A quick search of 1901 census and she found this entry (I did slightly mislead her as I thought the birth certificate named 'William P Williams', but I've just looked and there was no P):

Name: William P Williams
Birth: abt 1878 - Wendron, Cornwall, England
Residence: 1901 - Wendron, Cornwall, England

The address was Tolcarne, which is not far away and he was a farmer's son.

A very brief search now has revealed:.

Name: William R Williams
Birth: abt 1879 - Mawgan, Cornwall, England
Residence: 1901 - Wendron, Cornwall, England

Also the right age and a farmer's son, but Mawgan is probably a little too far away.

There may be others too, I'lll do a proper search soon.

The lady suggested looking for wills to maybe help decipher a potential father of Crisilda.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:21 am

clare_bear wrote:I went to the Who Do You Think You Are Live show on Friday and had a chat with a very helpful lady from the Cornwall Family History Society about Crisilda/Carrie. I explained the William Williams on the birth certificate as the father and she said that there must be loads of William Williams in the region that could be the father of Crisilda and that it was highly unlikely that it was Ethel's father who was Crisilda's father as if he was they just wouldn't have put it on the birth certificate. She acknowledged that that sort of thing happened, but she'd never seen the father's name on the certificate. Interesting.

The lady suggested looking for wills to maybe help decipher a potential father of Crisilda.


That's good news. I must admit, I was not convinced that they would have named Ethel's father as the father on the certificate as that would have been a shocking thing to admit to. It is always possible William Williams was a relative of Ethel's. e.g. first or second (or more) cousin. Girls were often in service with relatives so that could be how they met.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:39 pm

steve bannister 1 wrote:If it were me, I would be ordering birth certificates for Ethel, Loveday, Gwendlion, Octavia, Flossie, Ernest, Bessie and Hilda to find out who the father is.


So far, I only have birth certificates for Ethel & Loveday.

William Pearce Williams and Ann Pryor Williams are the parents of both of them.

I'm having trouble finding the entries of Flossie and Ernest, but they're next on my list to seek out!
clare_bear
 
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:43 pm

clare_bear wrote:So far, I only have birth certificates for Ethel & Loveday.

William Pearce Williams and Ann Pryor Williams are the parents of both of them.

I'm having trouble finding the entries of Flossie and Ernest, but they're next on my list to seek out!


At least you have the middle names, Pearce and Pryor, which may help you further, as they are probably family surnames. That seems quite a tradition in the South West, as it occurs in my Devonian and Cornish families but rarely in my other branches.
ksouthall
 
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:42 pm

ksouthall wrote:
clare_bear wrote:So far, I only have birth certificates for Ethel & Loveday.

William Pearce Williams and Ann Pryor Williams are the parents of both of them.

I'm having trouble finding the entries of Flossie and Ernest, but they're next on my list to seek out!


At least you have the middle names, Pearce and Pryor, which may help you further, as they are probably family surnames. That seems quite a tradition in the South West, as it occurs in my Devonian and Cornish families but rarely in my other branches.


Useful to know that this is a bit of a local tradition in the Westcountry!

OK, further updates after having an excellent email from someone on Ancestry with descendants in common.... It would seem that Ethel Williams got around a bit! Flossie is her daughter too and no father was named on the birth certificate! Ethel had another son (Stanley) who had no father on the birth certificate and was fostered out somewhere, much like Crisilda, and as yet neither me or the other person have located a birth entry for Ernest.

I wondered when looking at it all last night if Ernest and Flossie were accidentally noted as Symons on the 1901 census and judging by the birth certificate and the thoughts of the other researcher, it seems they were.

Fun stuff!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby steve bannister 1 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:18 am

Hi Clare,

Glad to see that you're finding out so much!

Interesting that Crisilda was not the only child of Ethel's to be fostered out. There is definitely a minefield of family secrets here. Hope you get to the bottom of them.

Sorry I haven't been of much help lately, I've been moving, settling in, unpacking, etc.

Been following your story, though.

Steve.
Researching:
BAPTISTE - Tobago, then moved to Glasgow in 1870's
YOUNG - Glasgow
GALLER - Austria
DEASE - Ireland (Westmeath/Meath/Coole/Kildare)
BEARDMORE - Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
HAIGH - London (Originally Halifax, Yorkshire)
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