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Poor Law and elusive relative

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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby steve bannister 1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:26 am

Hi Clare,

Can you send me a copy of the 1911 census for the Williams that you said you had? Also for the address at No 4 Pollengrain (Pollengrain Farm), William S Symonds (Age 57) and Mary Symonds (Age 45), they have two children listed on the 1901 census as well, Bessie (age 16) and Hilda (age 5). There is something I want to check out.

Can you also search for Gwendlion and Octavia Symons in the 1911 census. I am wondering why they have the same surname as Flossie and Ernest in the 1901 census, but are listed as visitors, not family, whereas Flossie and Ernest ARE listed as family.

The family listed at 4 Pollengrain (Pollengrain Farm) on the 1901 census, have the surname 'Symonds'. Very similar to the 'Symons', the visitors and grandchilden listed as being at the Williams house.

The Symonds at no. 4 Pollengrain, William Symonds and Mary Symonds, have two children listed; Bessie (age 16) and Hilda (age 5). That means that there is an 11 year gap between these children. Are, then, the 'Symons' staying at the Williams house, really the children of the 'Symonds'? Has the enumerator misspelt 'Symons' or Symonds'? Why are two 'Symons' at the Williams house 'visitors' and the other two 'Symons' are 'grandchildren'? Did Willian Williams father a couple of children with the neighbours wife? If you look at Mary Symonds (No. 4 Pollengrain) place of birth, you'll see that it is 'Constantine', the same as Willian and Ethel. Did Willian and Mary know each other from before?

If Flossie and Ernest are Willian's grandchldren, who are their parents? Ethel and Loveday are old enough to be the mother of Flossie and Ernest. Both Ethel and Loveday are listed as single, so no marriage then. Is Willian the father of one or more of these children? He could technically, call them grandhildren as well if Ethel or Loveday were the mother. At ages 14 and 12, Gwendlion and Octavia would be too young for either to be the mother of Flossie or Ernest. So, something doesn't add up.

If it were me, I would be ordering birth certificates for Ethel, Loveday, Gwendlion, Octavia, Flossie, Ernest, Bessie and Hilda to find out who the father is.

I've just got a gut-feeling that something is going on here, and I think we need more facts to go on.

Thanks,

Steve.
Researching:
BAPTISTE - Tobago, then moved to Glasgow in 1870's
YOUNG - Glasgow
GALLER - Austria
DEASE - Ireland (Westmeath/Meath/Coole/Kildare)
BEARDMORE - Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
HAIGH - London (Originally Halifax, Yorkshire)
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:28 am

Steve, you are a legend, thanks for the continued help. My great aunt and I were beginning to suspect a juicy skeleton in the closet when things didn't add with Carrie's birth details......gut feelings shouldn't be ignored!

I'll get the 1911 census entry to you, and look into your suggestions. I was also intrigued by the 'Symons' / 'Symonds' grand kids/neighbours stuff, but it's hard to know where to look first! And the migration down the main Helston-Falmouth road (A394) hadn't escaped my notice either. They're all pretty near to each other, but I imagine it wasn't that common to move around that much given that the quarry areas haven't moved, and in fact are still there now, in parts.

Can I be reasonably sure that Crisilda is Carrie? I had another check of births at the time for people called Caroline or similar and I've ruled all the otehrs out. Given the fact that no Crisilda is on the 1901 census at Pollengrain, and Carrie is - having been given up by a 'mother who didn't want her' - I guess I can be reasonably confident! Mind you, I'm fascinated enough that I want to know what happened anyway now!! Perhaps a scandal so immense rocked Pollengrain so badly that it was abandoned...imagination running wild! I still think that Crisilda's 2nd middle name, James, may have a bearing on proceedings though, so I must keep that in sight as a potential explanation too, I suppose.

Cheers
Clare
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby steve bannister 1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:46 am

I know what you mean, I want to know what happened as well, and it's not my family!

The surname 'James' may be a maiden name, or a previous surname, in the family. It's not unusual for females to be give a maiden name further back along the female line. It carries the name on. My own grandmother was called Jemima Young Baptiste. 'Young' was a surname from a few generations back.

If you can get Willian and Ann's marriage cerificate,it would be interesting to find out what Ann's maiden name was. Then, with that, we can start to trace Ann and her family on previous censuses.

I would definitely phone Cornwall County Council, to find out what happened to Pollegrain. And don't give up until they tell you!

I would also get in touch with churches in Hendron, Halwin and Retanna to see if they know what happened to Pollengrain.

If you have to visit any of these places, just remember...'Train don't stop Camborne Wednesdays'.

Steve
Researching:
BAPTISTE - Tobago, then moved to Glasgow in 1870's
YOUNG - Glasgow
GALLER - Austria
DEASE - Ireland (Westmeath/Meath/Coole/Kildare)
BEARDMORE - Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
HAIGH - London (Originally Halifax, Yorkshire)
steve bannister 1
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:29 pm

Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:35 pm

steve bannister 1 wrote:I know what you mean, I want to know what happened as well, and it's not my family!

The surname 'James' may be a maiden name, or a previous surname, in the family. It's not unusual for females to be give a maiden name further back along the female line. It carries the name on. My own grandmother was called Jemima Young Baptiste. 'Young' was a surname from a few generations back.

If you can get Willian and Ann's marriage cerificate,it would be interesting to find out what Ann's maiden name was. Then, with that, we can start to trace Ann and her family on previous censuses.

I would definitely phone Cornwall County Council, to find out what happened to Pollegrain. And don't give up until they tell you!

I would also get in touch with churches in Hendron, Halwin and Retanna to see if they know what happened to Pollengrain.

If you have to visit any of these places, just remember...'Train don't stop Camborne Wednesdays'.

Steve


OK, I'll get onto the marriage certificate.....and the mystery of Pollengrain!

Thanks for the train advice....it's so true! My family still live in and around Helston, so I go down regularly. I used to catch the train to Redruth, but the mission to get back from there to Helston is enough to put me off - I now drive down! I really must make a proper 'family research' break down there - when I get down it's usually for a brief time and I spend it with the family, I may have to make a specific research visit soon.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:06 pm

I've found Willian and Ann's marriage entry. From the entry, it would seem that:

Richards was her maiden name, Ann Pryor Richards. They were married in 1874 in the Falmouth district (I imagine that'll be Constantine).
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:37 pm

steve bannister 1 wrote:The surname 'James' may be a maiden name, or a previous surname, in the family.


It is also not unsual for illegitimate children to be given their father's name, if known, as a middle name, so this is defiitely something to bear in mind.

The Symons children could be the children of one of Willian's married daughters who was never listed on a census with her parents, possibly if she was away visiting relatives or even at school. I have found this in a few cases in my family, so it is another possibility to consider.

Katherine
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:46 pm

ksouthall wrote:
steve bannister 1 wrote:The surname 'James' may be a maiden name, or a previous surname, in the family.


It is also not unsual for illegitimate children to be given their father's name, if known, as a middle name, so this is defiitely something to bear in mind.

The Symons children could be the children of one of Willian's married daughters who was never listed on a census with her parents, possibly if she was away visiting relatives or even at school. I have found this in a few cases in my family, so it is another possibility to consider.

Katherine


Thanks, Katherine. I'm ruling nothing out just yet!

I've had a little Google for Polangrain (which appears to be the correct spelling). There is a house called Polangrain in the correct area, which was once 2 cottages. I think the cottage address is Polengrain, Laity, Wendron. Laity has also been namechecked in the family folklore, and I haven't ruled out the possibility that the alleged connection with Carnebone Farm, could be Polangrain Farm.

More interestingly, I found a mining site namechecking 'Polangrain mixed mine' and 'Polangrain tin stream', this may be pertinent as family folklore (and the marriage certificate) suggests Carrie's father was a tin miner - another angle that could be possible. I've emailed the site to see if they can enlighten me further.

Sorting out the Symons stuff may make things clearer - it's more about ruling things out at this stage, it seems.

I shall have no internet access over the weekend, so I'm going to have to leave the bulk of this until next week - not sure my patience will take it!

Clare
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:52 pm

clare_bear wrote:[It's more about ruling things out at this stage, it seems.

I'm going to have to leave the bulk of this until next week - not sure my patience will take it!

Clare


I know what you mean. Sometimes it seems that certificates take ages to arrive. Today I received one with no father's name at all, but at least I now know the mother's name. Her daughter was adopted, probably unofficially, by a very distant relative, however I am trying to find out if the daughter is a relation or not.

It is one of those things I don't really need to know, but just want to fit all the pieces together, if I can. I think you are right though, some puzzles may never be entirely fixed.

Katherine
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:22 am

Cornwall County Record Office have given me some info on Pollangreen - it still exists:

Pollangreen still exists. If you take the A394 from Helston to Falmouth, the road which leads to it is a turning on the left, just before the turning to Vicarage Farm campsite. Pollangreen farm is marked on the current Ordnance Survey Explorer map 1:25 000 for the Wendron, grid reference SW7032 and adjacent to the farm is Polangrain or Pollangrean cottage.

I also found a website with reference to Polangrain mine. This interested me as there were suggestions of Carrie's father being a tin miner......bit tenuous maybe!

The spelling of 'Pollangreen' seems to be a little open to interpretation, though!

I haven't had time to investigate the Williams'/Symonds' any further yet, but shall try to grab an hour later!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:47 am

OK, an update:

I'm currently waiting for birth certificates for Ethel and Loveday and for what I hope is Flossie. Also waiting on the marriage certificate for Willian and Ann.

I can't find a baptism entry for Crisilda on the Cornish Parish Online Clerks site or Ancestry.

Gwendlion/Gwendoline Symons - can't find her in the area on the 1911 census. Closest is in Bridgwater and saying she was born in Bridgwater, rather than Illogan as on 1901 census - possible, I guess.

Octavia Symons - again, can't find her in the area on 1911 census, but there is an O Symons (female) in Bideford with her family. Again, she was on th census as being born in Bideford rather than Illogan!

William Symonds from 4 Polegrain (the farm) seems to be married to a Grace in the 1891 census. She must have died and then he married Mary. On the 1891 census, along with his wife Grace, there is their daughter Bessie (the very same as on 1901 census, so not Mary's daughter). They're living in Constantine on the 1891 census. It looks like Grace died in 1898. Hilda on the 1901 census is not their child it seems, as her surname is Tremayne - just an entry error saying she is the daughter? They don't seem to be in Pollengrain by 1911.

That's what I have so far, I just need to patiently wait for certificates now!

Cheers
Clare
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