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Poor Law and elusive relative

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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:07 pm

ksouthall wrote:
clare_bear wrote:I still hold out hope that William was on the birth certificate to make it look like she was married, though, especially given the family hearsay that her father's name was John (Williams, so equally likely to be made up!) and that they lived at Carnebone farm - harbouring hopes of the farmer's son being the father!



Clare,

I forgot to mention this morning, were there any families nearby with the surname James? As that was one of Crisilda's middle names, that could be a hint about who the father was.

If there was a John James living locally, could he be your man?

Katherine


Brilliant, thank you Katherine! Can't believe I didn't think of that myself as my grandfather had the middle name Bowden and his father is unknown, so likely that that was a surname. I must look into that at some stage too!

I shall look for a John James near to Crisilda's parents in the 1901 census.

Thanks very much.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby steve bannister 1 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:41 pm

ksouthall wrote:Clare,

I forgot to mention this morning, were there any families nearby with the surname James? As that was one of Crisilda's middle names, that could be a hint about who the father was.

If there was a John James living locally, could he be your man?

Katherine


Having searched the 1901 census, there is no family with the surname of 'James' in the hamlet of Pollengrain. There is only one person with the first name of James, but he is a 7 year old boy. Not sure how far further afield you want to search.

Clare,

If you want to send me your email address by private message, I'll send all of the paperwork that I found; censuses, transcripts, BMD, etc.

Stev.
Researching:
BAPTISTE - Tobago, then moved to Glasgow in 1870's
YOUNG - Glasgow
GALLER - Austria
DEASE - Ireland (Westmeath/Meath/Coole/Kildare)
BEARDMORE - Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
HAIGH - London (Originally Halifax, Yorkshire)
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:18 pm

steve bannister 1 wrote:
ksouthall wrote:Clare,

I forgot to mention this morning, were there any families nearby with the surname James? As that was one of Crisilda's middle names, that could be a hint about who the father was.

If there was a John James living locally, could he be your man?

Katherine


Having searched the 1901 census, there is no family with the surname of 'James' in the hamlet of Pollengrain. There is only one person with the first name of James, but he is a 7 year old boy. Not sure how far further afield you want to search.

Clare,

If you want to send me your email address by private message, I'll send all of the paperwork that I found; censuses, transcripts, BMD, etc.

Stev.


Ah well, it was worth a shot, thanks again Steve.

PM incoming with my email address.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:17 pm

ksouthall wrote:Another alternative would be to order the birth certificate for the Caroline born in Falmouth. Details as follows:-

Name: Caroline Williams
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Falmouth
County: Cornwall
Volume: 5c
Page: 154


I've just checked this out to see if she is a possible, but I think I've found her on the 1901 census (living with her parents in Mawnan), so she's not my Carrie, by the looks of it. Shame, that may have led to a happier story!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:46 pm

ksouthall wrote:I found another Loveday in Devon last week, so am wondering if it was a South West name.



I forgot to answer your question about Loveday. I think it probably is mainly a Cornish name, you find a good few on Cornish censuses. I've not seen it anywhere else, but it seems it's spread to Devon as well :D It could well be a Westcountry name, but it's definitely not that uncommon to see it on censuses - not sure that it's currently used much, though.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:13 pm

There is a Charles James in a nearby village (Retanna), but I'm not sure how far Pollengrain is from Retanna as I can't find any maps with Pollengrain on yet. However, Carnebone is near Retanna as well, so they must all be pretty close - it was thought that there was some connection with Carnebone Farm as far as Carrie was concerned. Could be more misguidance, but there may be something in it.

I shall start the tougher quests of a parish record for Crisilda and local newspapers now!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:02 pm

clare_bear wrote:There is a Charles James in a nearby village (Retanna), but I'm not sure how far Pollengrain is from Retanna as I can't find any maps with Pollengrain on yet. However, Carnebone is near Retanna as well, so they must all be pretty close - it was thought that there was some connection with Carnebone Farm as far as Carrie was concerned. Could be more misguidance, but there may be something in it.

I shall start the tougher quests of a parish record for Crisilda and local newspapers now!


Ethel could have been in service somewhere away from home, with a family with the surname James, or a fellow employee with the surname James. I did a search on Ancestry and there were quite a few people with the name John James in the 1881 Census (over 2000) of them. Some of them must still have been around in 1900. They were spread about quite a bit so you ever know. It is still a strong possibility that someone outside the family was Carrie's father.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby ksouthall » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:05 pm

clare_bear wrote:
ksouthall wrote:Another alternative would be to order the birth certificate for the Caroline born in Falmouth. Details as follows:-

Name: Caroline Williams
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Falmouth
County: Cornwall
Volume: 5c
Page: 154


I've just checked this out to see if she is a possible, but I think I've found her on the 1901 census (living with her parents in Mawnan), so she's not my Carrie, by the looks of it. Shame, that may have led to a happier story!


Yes, I think I hd also discounted her for that reason earlier too. Funny how sometimes we end up going in circles......keeps us busy though.
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby clare_bear » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:24 pm

ksouthall wrote:
clare_bear wrote:There is a Charles James in a nearby village (Retanna), but I'm not sure how far Pollengrain is from Retanna as I can't find any maps with Pollengrain on yet. However, Carnebone is near Retanna as well, so they must all be pretty close - it was thought that there was some connection with Carnebone Farm as far as Carrie was concerned. Could be more misguidance, but there may be something in it.

I shall start the tougher quests of a parish record for Crisilda and local newspapers now!


Ethel could have been in service somewhere away from home, with a family with the surname James, or a fellow employee with the surname James. I did a search on Ancestry and there were quite a few people with the name John James in the 1881 Census (over 2000) of them. Some of them must still have been around in 1900. They were spread about quite a bit so you ever know. It is still a strong possibility that someone outside the family was Carrie's father.


Thanks for that.

It's going to be really tough to determine anything further, isn't it!

Incidentally, not only was Carrie's dad named as John on her marriage certificate, but he was said to be a tin miner. Could all have been part of the cover story, but you never know. Actually, as I think, other family folklore suggests that Carrie had an older sister and that she was sent to another family (thought to be the Wearne's), but I suspect that this all just muddies the waters, rather than adding any insight!

I've just had a look on the 1911 census and William Williams is still there, still a stone mason, still married, but Ann is not on the same census entry. Loveday is there still and is single, but no Ethel. Interestingly, Flossie and Ernest Symons who were on the 1901 census as grandchildren, are still there, but are now Flossie and Ernest Williams!
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Re: Poor Law and elusive relative

Postby steve bannister 1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:41 am

clare_bear wrote:
I've just had a look on the 1911 census and William Williams is still there, still a stone mason, still married, but Ann is not on the same census entry. Loveday is there still and is single, but no Ethel. Interestingly, Flossie and Ernest Symons who were on the 1901 census as grandchildren, are still there, but are now Flossie and Ernest Williams!


Did you also look for Gwendlion Symons and Octavia Symons on the 1911 census? It seems weird that they are listed as visitors on the 1901 census, yet Flossie and Ernest have the same Symons surname and are listed as grandchildren.


Willian Williams and his family seem to have been moving south along what is now the A394.
The 1881 census places them at Halvosso, Mabe, Cornwall
The 1891 census has them in Rame, Carmenellis, Cornwall
And the 1901 census has them in Pollengrain. Pollengrain no longer exists, but if you look at the census pages either side of the Williams address in Pollengrain, the two places either side are Retannah (now Retanna) and Halwin.

Rettana, Rame, Halvosso, Mabe are all along the A394. The Williams family are moving south along it on each of the 3 censuses. From Willian and Ethel’s birthplace of Constantine, they never seem to move further than a couple of miles away. As Willian was born in Constantine and so was his daughter, Ethel, it would follow the Willian and Ann would have probably married in Constantine as well, so worth checking with the church there.

Being a Stone Mason, Willian would have moved to Mabe / Rame / Halvosso to be nearer the Granite Quarry’s that are there. When you look at the census pages either side of the Williams one for Pollengrain in the 1901 census, you find loads of Stone Masons and Granite Quarry Labourers.

So, what happened to Pollengrain? There were 8 residences there, one of which was a farm. I suggest you get in touch with Cornwall County Council (Tel: 01872 322000, enquiries@cornwall.gov.uk, County Hall, Treyew Road, Truro TR1 3AY) and ask them. Show them the copy of the 1901 census that I sent you, to proved that it existed.

There is an old map of Constantine on http://www.francisfrith.com/constantine/maps/
It is hard to read the surrounding place names from the website as the quality is not very good. You would have to order the map, £22, to get a better look. The map is from 1904, so Pollengrain should be on there, if it was that close to Constantine. I would suggest getting in touch with Francis Firth first, though, to see if they would know which map would cover Pollengrain.

Helpful links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine,_Kerrier
http://www.constantinecornwall.com/hist ... ge-centre/
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=1729 – Records and archives for Cornwall
http://www.rameheritage.co.uk/level1_tn/rame_home1.html
Researching:
BAPTISTE - Tobago, then moved to Glasgow in 1870's
YOUNG - Glasgow
GALLER - Austria
DEASE - Ireland (Westmeath/Meath/Coole/Kildare)
BEARDMORE - Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
HAIGH - London (Originally Halifax, Yorkshire)
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