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Irish records

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Irish records

Postby Templ4r » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:53 pm

After doing my Tree for about 26 years, through England, Wales and Scotland I am now venturing into the unknown... my 3 Irish ancestors.

All I have on Ellen Duffy is her marriage at Manchester Cathedral in 1822 to Charles Hassall and the 1841 census where she was born about 1805 and from Ireland. She disappears from the water damaged 1851 Manchester census where Charles says he's married and I can't prove a death. A couple of Trees have her as a daughter of a Hugh Duffy, but they are Catholic records and after asking, they just seemed to accept it and copy from other trees.
As Ellen Duffy married in a C of E church, I assume she's not Catholic, or could she have been as Charles Hassall and none of my Hassall line were or are. Some were Methodists.

I have a bit more on Thomas Denham and Janes Spiers as they moved to Scotland. The census sheets say place of birth, Ireland, but a birth certificate in 1861 says they married on 17 March 1837 at Ballyronie. I assume that's Ballyrony/Drumballyrony, County Down?
Try as I might, I can't find anything for them or even a mention on any Ireland sites I've looked at.

Any ideas?
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Re: Irish records

Postby Robbie J N » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:25 pm

Hello.
Is your Thomas Denham the one who died in Ayrshire in 1874, born approx 1818?
Is your Jane Spiers the one who died in Ayrshire in 1890, born approx 1816?
If so, their 3rd child Jane Denham was my ancestor.
The eldest 3 children have a mixture of census records sometimes saying they were born in Ireland and sometimes saying Wigtownshire.
The remaining 6 children, there might be more, have records in Wigtownshire, so no conflicting details for them.
Which of the 9, or more, siblings are you descended from?

Thomas’s parents were listed as Mary Kilpatrick and James Denham.
Jane’s parents were listed as Margaret and Richard Spiers.
(Spiers sometimes written Speirs, but a descendant of theirs had the name Jane Spiers Gibson, so Spiers seems to be the correct spelling.)
Last edited by Robbie J N on Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irish records

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:28 pm

If you are a total beginner with Irish Genealogy, then https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/ is recommended by many. It's a how-to site, not a data site.

I am uncertain of this but I *think* that the instruction that Catholics had to marry in a Catholic church is rather later. In any case, prior to 1837 every marriage had to take place in a Church of England church (excepting only Quaker and Jewish marriages). There were RC marriages at this time but they were additional to the legally required CofE ceremony.

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Re: Irish records

Postby Templ4r » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:49 pm

Robbie J N, their daughter Grace Stewart Denham, 1848 - 1915, married Hugh Taylor, 1869. My wifes 4X grandparents.

We have the death certificates of Thomas and Jane giving us the Parents. We think Richard and Margaret Spiers are in the area and have their DCs in 1868 and 1860. Possibly taking us back to 2 George Spiers, a Mc Guffock and a Margaret Mc Decnall.
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Re: Irish records

Postby Templ4r » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:56 pm

Thanks Adrian, I'll take a look. This is my first attempt at Irish genealogy. I've been reading loads of books the last couple of weeks, but the links to PRONI don't seem much help and the Irish pages all seem to be sending me to Dublin....

Sure isn't as easy as England...
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Re: Irish records

Postby Robbie J N » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:09 pm

Grace Stewart was the earliest child with a baptism record in Scotland, that I can find.
The last child (9th) I have a record for is Elizabeth in 1859.
Who was born 1861?

The Denham surname was passed on for several generations as a middle name. Grace’s nephew, via her sister Jane, was called James Denham Gibson and he had a granddaughter called Jane Denham Gibson, who was my great-aunty. Plus the Spiers name continued on with Grace’s niece, again via her sister Jane, called Jane Spiers Gibson.

Thanks for the information about where in Ireland they got married. As Jane was born before 1855, and also maybe (or not) born in Ireland, there was no birth record for her to check her parents’ marriage details.
Although, this information does seem to match something I put in my ‘Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland’ post about Irish migration to south-west Scotland being mostly from (what is now called) Northern Ireland, and the people being ‘Ulster-Scots’.

What I am not sure about is Margaret Spiers’s maiden surname as it is simply says ‘MS Spiers’ on her daughter’s death record. Usually when it matches the married name, it means the informant did not know, rather than them being the same name.
But if you have 2 George Spiers, then that was probably her maiden name, so what I just put in the previous sentence does not apply.
Some people on Ancestry have their death years, which I will now have to investigate.

I know this is your post, but it has helped me with my research, so thanks again.
Last edited by Robbie J N on Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irish records

Postby Templ4r » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:24 pm

Sarah was born 1861, the earliest one where the parents marriage is entered.

If you message me your E mail address, I'll send what we have. You can have a read and see if you agree we are on the right lines.
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Re: Irish records

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:04 pm

Do not worry about the Irish pages sending you to Dublin - not yet anyway. Dublin had all the records for all Ireland up to 1922 and the free images of civil registration certificates (say) include those for the North up to 1922. What I have no idea about are the Presbyterian records that were generally applicable to the North....

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Re: Irish records

Postby MayHam » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:57 am

Please see the three entries for James Denham of Drumballyroney.
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~rosdavie ... DenDey.htm
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Re: Irish records

Postby Templ4r » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:41 am

Thank you Adrian and Mayhem.. Looks like I'm going to have to get a map of the Countys of Ireland, I thought I was having enough trouble with areas of London.

Baronys, townships, parishes, then the church parish isn't the same as the poor law and denominations parishes are different. Looks like it's going to be fun.. :lol:
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