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Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

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Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby Robbie J N » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:19 pm

Hello, I am looking for any birth or Christening/baptism records for a Theresa Hastings, born about 1861 in Ireland.
I have no idea where in Ireland she was born as all the Scottish census records simply say Ireland, except for the one that says she was born in Scotland, which I assume was incorrect.
She was living in Sorn, Ayrshire by the 1871 census with her mother Margaret, though their surname is given as ‘Hastie’, rather than Hastings.
By 1881 she had moved to Ochiltree, Ayrshire and was a servant. (This is the census that said she was born in Sorn, Ayrshire.)
In October 1881 she had a son called William Hastings, with no father’s name listed. (He was later called William Hastings Smith on censuses and his marriage record.)
In March 1884 she married James Millar and in the following year she had the 1st of 9 children she had with him.

Theresa’s mother Margaret married in Auchinleck, Ayrshire in August 1871 to John McFarlane. This is where things get a bit confusing – She was again called ‘Hastie’ rather than Hastings, but she signed her name with an ‘X’ so perhaps an error in communication between her and the registrar. But, the confusing thing was that she called herself a spinster and gave her parents’ names as Jane and John Hastie.
When Theresa married, she gave her mother’s maiden surname as ‘Beck’ and her father’s name as John.
This is the correct family because on the 1891 census a Margaret McFarlane was living with her daughter Theresa and son-in-law James Millar (incorrectly written as ‘Miller’) plus their children.
Margaret died in 1900 and her death certificate gives her parents’ names as Jane/Janet (hard to read on the certificate) and John Hastings. But when Theresa died in 1932, it gives her parent’s names as John Hastings and Margaret Beck.

So, was Theresa’s father called John Hastings and her mother called Margaret Beck, as I have on my family tree (for the moment), or was Theresa illegitimate and her mother was unmarried with the name of Margaret Hastings, or even Hastie, with no father known?
There is a lot of conflicting information about this, so if anyone can find an Irish record that can fix this problem, it would be greatly appreciated.

Quick addition:
Just to clarify, Theresa Millar, daughter, was listed as the informant on Margaret’s death record, so she gave the details about her grandparents which differed from what she gave on her own marriage record with regard to her mother’s maiden surname.
Also, anyone looking on Scotland’s People may find a John Hastings who died in Sorn in 1860. This is not Theresa’s father or her grandfather as he was only 11, so much too young. (Possibly a relative, but not the one, or ones, I am looking for.)
Robbie J N
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby MayHam » Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:45 am

Not sure if related or not, but, there is a James Hastie at Corn Mill St., Sorn in 1851, born about 1803.
He and his family were born in Antrim, Ireland.

Also, Hugh Hastings of Ireland at Corn Mill St., Sorn in 1871. He died there in 1874, aged 62.
His son, James, used the name "Hastie" in 1891 and "Hastings," otherwise.
He (or his wife) have an Aunt Mary Fry (born 1800, Ireland) living with them in Auchinleck in 1871.
Noticed Margaret Hastie (Theresa's mother) married John McFarlane in Auchinleck in 1871.

Finally, just to confuse things...
1. There is a Margaret Beck (born about 1837, Sorn) and her son, Robert Beck (born about 1857, Sorn), listed in the 1861 Sorn census. Margaret says she's married.

2. A Margaret Beck married an Andrew McFarlane in 1865 in Lochrutton.

Didn't find any Irish records for Theresa or these mentioned.
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby Robbie J N » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:35 am

Thanks for the help.

Margaret Hastings/Hastie was definitely married to John McFarlane as he was listed as her husband on her death record. That is the right marriage for Theresa’s mother.
Plus I should have mentioned that Margaret was born in about 1828, according to her death certificate, aged 72, although her marriage and census records give different years of birth, based on her given age on the record. So, at best, it is within about 10 years of 1828, to the best of my knowledge.

All spellings of the surname are always ‘Hastings’ from 1881 onwards. Besides pre-marriage son William, there were 3 out of the 9 Millar children who had Hastings as a middle name, plus at least one grandchild that I know of.

I have not found Margaret on the 1881 census, but the previous and subsequent records both say she was born in Ireland. (I have only seen the Ancestry transcriptions and not the originals on Scotland’s People, but Ireland could not be confused with a a place in Scotland surely?)
All census records, minus the 1881 census, from 1871 to 1911 say Theresa was born in Ireland. (Actual 1911 census entry seen in full on Scotland’s People.) The 1881 census was when Theresa was merely a worker in a household, not a family member. I suppose they could be wrong, but there is nothing to indicate they are, at the moment. Living in Scotland from a young age would result in a Scottish accent, not an Irish one, and moving from Sorn to Ochiltree might make it seem that that was the only migrating she had undertaken, possibly.

Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the religious denominational distribution in Ireland might know this, but if you were Protestant, Church of Scotland, etc, were you more likely to have come from the counties that now make up Northern Ireland, rather than those that make up the ROI?
Would these migrations between north-east Ireland and south-west Scotland be amongst those people sometimes referred to as ‘Ulster-Scots’? Or is that just the name of a dialect of the Scots language? If so, then Ulster, or Northern Irish, origins would at least narrow it down to where Theresa was likely to be from.

Margaret had a Catholic marriage and Theresa had a Church of Scotland marriage, so inconclusive as to their denomination. Theresa’s husband James Millar had a CofS baptism, but I do not know much about John McFarlane.
Plus, this may seem obvious, but I suppose the ‘John Hastings’ listed as Theresa’s father, may have actually been her step-father John McFarlane, but I do not know. John Hastings was deceased by 1884, according to the marriage record, but I am not sure when John McFarlane died, before 1891 is as specific as I think I can be.
Robbie J N
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby MayHam » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:45 pm

For what it's worth, FindMyPast has a Margaret McFarlane (born about 1818, Ireland) at Corn Mill St., Sorn in 1881. I notice she says she is married in 1881 & 1891. Did you say John McFarlane was her informant in 1901?

Any chance Hugh Hastings might be Margaret's brother? I wonder if his death certificate might provide a clue?
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby junkers » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:04 pm

I have gone through the birth index for 1861 on Scotland's People for the district of Sorn, Ayrshire, and there is no Theresa at all. So I think she must have been born in Ireland and the place of birth entry for Sorn on the Census is wrong. The chances for finding a baptism/birth are not good unless it was in the Catholic Church but where in Ireland you would start I do not know, I suppose the FamilySearch website might be your best bet.
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby Robbie J N » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:12 pm

Thanks for the 1881 record.
On Ancestry it has ‘Margaret McFarland’ as the name, so it did not come up in the search, though the FMP record has the surname correct, if it is the right woman.
The reason I thought John McFarlane was dead is because he is not listed at the same address in 1881 or 1891 as Margaret.
The Millar family moved address between 1891 and 1901, but the 1900 death record for Margaret gives the same address that her daughter Theresa Millar was living at in 1901, who was also the informant, not John.
Millars lived at 3 Skerrington Row Miners in 1891 and at Drougan No 55 in 1901, both in Ochiltree, not Sorn. The Drougan address was on the 1900 death record.
Also, it is very hard to make out, but on the death record it appears to say Margaret was the widow of John McFarlane, rather than ‘married to’, which indicates John’s status as deceased.

Working out Margaret’s birth year is hard based on the 5 records for her:
1871 Census - 48
1871 Marriage - 50
1881 Census - 63
1891 Census - 72
1900 Death - 72
Quite variable over the years!

For Theresa’s birth and baptism records I (unsuccessfully) tried ‘T*eresa Hasti*’ on Ancestry, but for places that are now Northern Ireland, I always find it difficult to get results.
It seems that as Northern Ireland, as a place name, did not exist in the 1860s, you have to use Ireland, but places in Northern Ireland are not in Ireland, according to Ancestry, but Northern Ireland, UK. You cannot narrow it down to the county level very easily. At least FMP gives you options, like for London it gives the option of London/Middlesex or London/Surrey to cover all your options.
But I do not know where she was born, county, province, anywhere.
I have several other relatives who ended up in Scotland or England, born between 1800 and 1850, where there is no indication of where in Ireland they were from, apart from a very useful Catholic marriage record in Liverpool which listed the parishes in Armagh where a couple were from.
Although, this was not unique for Irish born people, I have a Welsh born relative which on one English census simply says born in Wales, or English born relatives on a Scottish census saying born in England, or Scottish born relatives on an English census saying born in Scotland. All very vague and not much help when trying to narrow down places of birth.

Given that Theresa lived until 1932, there is always the 1921 census to look forward to. Whether that gives any more specific details of her place of birth, I will have to wait and see to find out.
Robbie J N
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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby MayHam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:50 am

I tend to use RootsIreland for Irish records.

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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:57 am

Re "Scottish born relatives on an English census saying born in Scotland. All very vague. . " Yes, very unhelpful, isn't it.

Just in case anyone doesn't realize, these unhelpful entries actually follow the census rules - if this was the GRO's census for England and Wales, then the instructions only required the country of birth for anyone born outside England and Wales. No prejudice was involved - the GRO (Scotland) was equally uninterested in where someone was born in other countries.

Pains in the posterior!

I don't remember the actual wording so I'm not certain whether it was an instruction to the householder or the enumerator. Of course, occasionally the rule was broken - my 3G GPs from Ireland are only ever described as Ireland in the English and Welsh census. My friend's GG-GF, on the other hand, is once recorded as something like "Mount Pleasant, Co Tipperary, Ireland" which is the precise farm of his birth!

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Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:05 am

I know the 1841 census for England & Wales had specific boxes to fill in for Scotland or Ireland, indicated with an ‘S’ or an ‘I’, but the subsequent censuses did not seem to be as unhelpful for future researchers.
Whatever the differences between Scotland and England & Wales for their forms, does not explain why an England & Wales census would just say ‘Wales’, that is so vague to be almost useless. Luckily that particular case was not the only record for that individual so I could narrow it down.
Other Scottish relatives of mine seem to alternate continually between being born in Ireland or in Wigtownshire from one census to the next, so I am never quite sure where they were born. Their parents were Irish, but younger siblings have baptism records in Scotland, so could be from either country originally. (That case was Theresa Hastings’s son-in-law’s grandmother, born 1845.)

One quick point to follow up from MayHam - The record for John Hastings’s death in 1860 from Scotland’s People, gives his parents as Hugh and Jane (McLaughlin). I got the record because the search results did not give an age, nor a day and month, so I thought there was a possibility he could be Theresa’s father, but 11 is much too young, obviously. Not sure why the age was missing from the search index.
Given the information you provided about Margaret living in Corn Mill St, the same road as Hugh Hastings, there is a good chance they are related somehow. (Same address is on John’s death record.)
There are a few trees on Ancestry with this family but the names given for Hugh’s parents differ from those of Margaret’s, so it is better if I research it myself to be sure.
Going by census records for Hugh and Jane’s children, they appear to have moved from Ireland to Scotland after 1842 and before 1846.
So even a mistaken purchase of a record might turn out to be a useful source of information!

Thanks again everyone.
Last edited by Robbie J N on Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Robbie J N
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:25 am

Re: Theresa Hastings - 1861 Ireland

Postby Amazinggrace » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:32 am

I too have a very unhelpful census of my great grandfather just saying "Ireland".Well thats cut it down a bit then........not! :evil:
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