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UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

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UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby PatW » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:46 pm

My ancestor John Yates is listed in the UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls 1793 - 1949 for the Crimean War and in the remarks column it has a D with a date 24th Jan 1857. There are quite a few with D in the remarks column. Can anyone tell me what this means ? I don't think it means died as he was still alive in 1861.

Thanks
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:31 pm

Wild and uninformed guess - Discharged? I.e. he's no longer in the Army so contact methods will need to be different????

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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby PatW » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:02 pm

Thanks Adrian. I guess that could be the answer. I think I could do with finding more out about his time in the army. At the moment I can't even find his death.

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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby MoVidger » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:26 pm

Is this your chap? Note: There was a Cholera epidemic in Nuseerabad, which effected the 28th regiment circa 1861.

British Army, Worldwide Index 1861
First name John
Last name Yates
Service number 4085
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 28th Foot (N. Gloucestershire)
Regiment stationed at Nuseerabad East Indies
Year 1861
National Archives reference WO12 / 4468
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby junkers » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:54 pm

PatW wrote:My ancestor John Yates is listed in the UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls 1793 - 1949 for the Crimean War and in the remarks column it has a D with a date 24th Jan 1857. There are quite a few with D in the remarks column. Can anyone tell me what this means ? I don't think it means died as he was still alive in 1861.

Thanks
Pat W


On the basis of other pages for soldiers where they entered 'Dead' in the column I think 'D' does stand for 'Dead' and the clerks were being lazy or to save ink, although it doesn't mean that the person died at the time when the Rolls were taken and may be years later.
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:54 pm

All the lists with a Crimean John Yates in seem to be slightly different format so any answer is going to be a combination of guesswork and deduction. In an unknown proportion!

I'm guessing that we are talking about John Yates, 4085, of the 28th Foot. Based on what MoVidger found, the date of 1857 doesn't work as a Discharge date.

John Yates, 4085, of the 28th Foot is on image 142 of 510. Image 138 is the start of that regiment and it states that what follows is a list not just of the Medal recipients but also those entitled to receive a clasp for the fall of Sebastopol. There are all sorts of notes at the start of that list - "Dead" is one, also "WO" in front of a date (referring to a "War Office" letter?). One note says "Sent" followed by a date.

"D" might mean "Dispatched" - i.e. medal dispatched to recipient - but then why aren't they all marked thus?

This bit looks interesting though. It's from https://crimeanwar-veteranswa.com/the-war/medals/ and reads:
Naming: The medal was issued unnamed. However, medals could be returned to the Mint for naming (in a style known as ‘officially impressed’), but many were crudely stamped with names by recipients who were presented with their medals in the Crimea (‘Depot impressed’), or were privately engraved by jewellers in England.

My emphasis because .... I think that at least one of those remarks included the word "Mint". So does "D" mean "Depot Impressed"? Maybe for some reason the clerks who compiled this roll kept a note of who'd had their name put onto the medal - returns to the Mint would presumably be done via the regiment and maybe the regiment ran a scheme for local stamping of the medals - the depot impressing?

This is all just a wild guess - as in an uncomfortable number of sources, only the clerk in question will ever know the answer....
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby PatW » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:54 am

Thanks for all the interesting and helpful replies. My ancestor is 4085 as found by MoVidger and if he did die in the epidemic is there anywhere that the deaths would be listed? Does anyone think that it may be worth getting in touch with the museum at Gloucester Docks in case they have any historical records ?

Also it seems that D may remain a mystery but at least I've got some possible explanations.

Thank you
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby MaureenE » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:54 pm

According to the following link
https://web.archive.org/web/20071216143 ... /028-1.htm
the 28th Regiment of Foot left India for England in 1865.

I looked in the India deaths on Findmypast but didn't see a relevant death. That doesn't mean that he didn't die there, just that there is no record he did die.

The regiment was stationed at the following places according to the link above
1854 Crimea
1856.05 Malta
1858.11 Egypt
1858 India: Bombay
1865 UK
1869 Gibraltar & Malta
1874 Hong Kong
1877 Singapore, Malacca & Penang
1879 UK

Have you checked out the service records on Findmypast? However, If he died while still serving there wouldn't be a surviving service record.

If he died in England you would probably be able to find a death record (Ireland could be a problem) but if he died overseas you would need to check out the muster rolls at the National Archives at Kew, which would require either a personal visit, or employment of a researcher as the muster rolls have not been digitised.

Cheers
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:31 pm

PatW wrote:... Does anyone think that it may be worth getting in touch with the museum at Gloucester Docks in case they have any historical records ? ...

Generally, in principle, the only personal / personnel records for this era will be in The National Archives at Kew. Nobody can say that there won't be anything at Gloucester but any stuff there will be list type stuff, not detailed records.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/ tells you about the detailed personnel records that were kept. In that era, the only reason for keeping those detailed personnel records would be if he survived to receive a pension. If he died in service, the records would have been scrapped.

I didn't see any John Yates 4085 on FindMyPast, who have the images of the surviving detailed personnel records - the 1861 record is there but that's all. The 1861 Worldwide Index was compiled from the Muster Rolls and, as Maureen suggests, the Muster Rolls are about the only likely way forward. What someone could do is find the Muster Roll for the regiment immediately before the transfer back to England in 1865, to see if he is still with them then. The point about the Muster Rolls is that they should contain information about how and when somebody left the strength of the battalion / regiment. They were compiled every quarter (at least, the ones I looked at were) so in theory you start with the earliest 1861 Muster (because the index has him with them in 1861) and look through each Muster until you find him being taken off strength. In fact, you'd do better to dip in and out - look at the 1865 to see if he came back. If he did, you don't need to look at the earlier ones. If he isn't in the 1865, have a look halfway at the 1862 (say) and so on, until it's worthwhile doing the boring work of looking at every one. (Looking at halfway points is known as a binary chop, if you want to be posh about it).

Eventually, somewhere in the world, so to speak, you should find an entry that says he left the 28th. It might say that he died - it might say that he transferred to another regiment, in which case he'll have a different number, but go to the Muster Rolls of that regiment / battalion and repeat the process.

Good luck - it's do-able for someone at Kew but is liable to take some time.
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Re: UK Military Campaign Medals and Awards Rolls

Postby PatW » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:41 pm

Thanks Maureen and Adrian for all that information!

It looks like a long process but I might get lucky. I know more about him already from your help!

Thanks again

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