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James & Sophia Turner - 1861

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James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby Robbie J N » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Hello again.
I am having great trouble locating the Turner family and its various branches anywhere on the 1861 census.

James Turner married Sophia Benson in 1827 in Bethnal Green, Middlesex.
Between 1830 and 1849 they had (at least) 5 children that I have been able to find.

James was born in about 1795, either in Middlesex, according to the 1841 census, or ‘Wepet’, Suffolk, according to the 1851 census. (I think that should probably say ‘Woolpit’, unless anyone has any better suggestions.) No further information on him.

Sophia was born in 1806 in Finsbury, Middlesex, to William and Mary Benson.

In 1841 and 1851 they lived in Dunk Street, Whitechapel.
In 1841 children Edward, Sophia and James are there.
In 1851 children James and John are there.

In 1871 and 1881, widowed Sophia is living with her daughter Sophia Cook, before dying in 1888.

The children:

Edward Turner born 1830 (according to baptism records on Ancestry), married Maria Louisa Barnett in 1849, had 3 children between 1850 and 1854, before moving to Australia, before 1861 I think, and having several more down there.

Sophia Turner born 1837 in Whitechapel (GRO), married Samuel Cook in 1858. Father James is not listed as deceased. She had at least 8 children between 1859 and 1876, 2 before the 1861 census. (John James Cook, born 1859, and Eliza Sophia Cook, born 1861.) She was still alive as a widow in 1911.

James Joseph Turner born 1839 in Whitechapel (GRO), married Rosina Fitch in 1859. Father James is again not listed as deceased. He had 12 children between 1860 and 1884, 1 before the 1861 census. (James Thomas Turner, born 1860.) James Joseph died in 1898 as my Dad has his funeral/burial card.

John Robert Turner born 1847 in Whitechapel (GRO), married Lucy Elizabeth Dodson in 1873. He had 6 children between 1874 and 1886. He died in 1886 as my Dad has his funeral/burial card too. (He is also my Dad’s great-grandfather.)

Frederick Turner born 1849 in Whitechapel (GRO), died same year 1849 in Whitechapel.

None of these people can be found on the 1861 census. Frederick was dead and Edward was probably in Australia, but the rest I cannot find. I do not know when James the father died, before or after 1861, but he was dead by 1871.
I presume that Sophia and Samuel Cook and James Joseph and Rosina Turner were not living with the rest of the family in 1861, but maybe they were.

If anyone can help me to track down this family on the 1861 census it would help to narrow down where the father James was from and also give me an idea of when he died.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide with regard to this.


(Sorry if this seems a long post, as I wanted to state as much info as possible so others would not waste their time looking it up.)
Robbie J N
 
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Re: James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby JMcK » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:49 am

Parts of the 1861 are missing including (M means in its entirety, I means in part)

145 Middlesex Islington Islington East (2) Islington M
217 Middlesex West London West London North (1) St Bartholomew the Less I
219 Middlesex West London West London South (2) Barnard"s Inn M
220 Middlesex London City London City SW (1) St Augustine Watling Street I
229 Middlesex London City London City NE (5) St Christopher le Stock
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Re: James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby Robbie J N » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 am

Thanks for the info about the missing census records for 1861.

A few more bits of info I should have included:
Sophia stated her address as simply 'St Peter's, Stepney' on her church marriage record in 1858.
James Joseph stated his address as 'Willow Place' on his church marriage record in 1859.

James Thomas Turner, born 1860, died in 1862 in Mile End Old Town (GRO).
If the rest of the family lived there, then there is a possible death record for James Turner, born about 1795, in 1867 in Mile End Old Town aged 72.
If anyone has found a funeral/burial record for James Turner in 1867 (Q1) that might help match to the one I am looking for, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.



Quick Addition:
I just found a probate listing for James Turner who died on 5th January 1867 who lived at Willow Place. That is the right one as it lists his widow as Sophia.
Still cannot find the family on the census though.
Therefore I cannot be sure exactly where James Turner came from, which would help me find out about his parents and ancestry.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby ciderdrinker » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:09 pm

Hi
I can't see a 1861 census for either James or Sophie.
But looking at deaths for James.
The one you mention Mar qtr 1867 is one of only two in London for that quarter and the other is a baby Arthur James over at St Pancras.
So when i found this burial at Hackney St John of Jeruslem Cemetery I thought it must be yours even though the age does not match up.
James Turner Mile End Old Town age 62 years 14th Jan 1867.

James Thomas Turner died 1862 buried at Holy Trinity MEOT 18 Hannibal road Stepney age 1 5.3.1862.
I'll have a look for the others on the census

I've not found the others but have spotted Willow Place.
No 1-8 are there in full ,then the next page continues with no 21 continued .It then goes up to no 26.Where are the missing nos including no 14 which should have your family?Are they on the microfilm but not the digital? I've tried FMP and Ancestry and no luck with the missing pages
c piece no 298 folio 109 page 7
It should be there but it's not.

Ciderdrinker
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Re: James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby HardWork » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:48 pm

Looking at the census in 1851 I think it is likely to be Wisset(t) in North East Suffolk. [Ref HO107 1544 Folio 367 Page 29

There are only two families of TURNER in Woolpit in the parish register:-

Thomas to Elizabeth late RIDLEN, RIDDLING, or RUTLEDGE with children born or bapt 1781-1803 and no James.

Thomas to Caroline or Carolina with two children Caroline 1778 and Thomas 1781

At Wissett there is a James baptised to John and Mary late SAVAGE 8 Dec 1793 born 07 Dec Received 07 Dec 1794

There were a further 8 siblings baptised 1792-1798, five being sons, so an autosomal and/or Y DNA test may be a way forward.

I note that James gives his aged as 56 in 1851, his wife being 44, so he may have adjusted his real age slightly.
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Re: James & Sophia Turner - 1861

Postby Robbie J N » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:52 pm

Thanks for that.
I saw that burial record but initially ignored it because the age was off by 10 years. Everything else matches, so is probably right. (Even the 2nd digit for the age is right.)

Also, I checked the address of 14 Willow Place, which was part of St Peter's Road, Stepney, according to the probate listing. So quite possibly Sophia Cook's family and James Joseph Turner's family could have been living with their parents in 1861.

Some trees on Ancestry have Edward having children from the late 1850s onwards in Australia, so I guess that means he was definitely down there before 1861. (I only have access to British records so am hoping those trees are vaguely accurate.)

Thanks again for the help.


Unfortunately this line is not my direct male line, so a Y chromosome test would be of no use.
John Robert Turner's daughter Alice Sophia, born 1878, was my Dad's paternal grandmother. Alice had 2 full brothers, one died aged 12 and the other died in WW1 with no wife or children. I have no links to any more distantly related Turner descendants, despite having the funeral/burial card for Alice's uncle James Joseph. The last of Alice's children, my great-aunty, died in 2017 aged 104, so I cannot get any more info from family members, besides my Dad.

James Joseph had 3 sons, but 2 died young, leaving only Edward James Turner, born 1867. In 1911 Rosina Turner only had 3 out of 12 children still alive. Plus there is an Edward James Turner who died in 1886 in Mile End Old Town aged 19. He was on the 1881 census but not 1891, so is probably him. (Burial record gives address as '21 Willow Street', Stepney.)
That leaves the Australian branch only, and I know nothing more about them, besides other people's trees on Ancestry.
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