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Where were they in 1891?

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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby MoVidger » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:46 pm

To be honest, I had to have a lie down after reading Rosina's various criminal records. I didn't return to the newspaper accounts for the stabbing. For a lady not even 5' in height, Rosina was certainly a ball of fire. I'm surprised Tom Morris eventually married her, but perhaps they had a co-dependency type of relationship? Rosina's exploits would make an entertaining BBC miniseries, I reckon.

I think the "actress" Alice who drank poison in 1899 is Rosina's sister. In 1891, your Alice is living with her grandparents at 16 Cromwell Road. Cromwell Road no longer exists. It is now "under" Whittington Park Football Pitch. This location is less than a quarter-mile to Fairmead Road, where "actress" Alice was living with her young daughter.

Pity the 1899 newspaper article didn't mention the 18-month old daughter's name, nor the man Alice was co-habitating with. Finding the daughter's birth/baptism record may provide more clues. One of the newspaper accounts mentions the daughter was taken with Alice to the workhouse, too. But I don't see a young child listed on the same page as Alice, except for an infant who died in the workhouse.
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby GillJones » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:31 pm

Hi SDV

Re the 1892 newspaper article about rose Daniels stabbing Thomas Morris - I had another scout around on Ancestry and there is a record for Clerkenwell Quarter Sessions on 25th April 1892 that shows Rose Daniels, offence: Wounding, outcome: Bill Ignored and Discharged! Apparently 'Bill Ignored' means that for some reason, they didn't proceed with the trial and she was released!

I also found:
6 Feb 1888 Clerkenwell General Session - Rose was given 8 months for Larceny and Receiving (it also refers to a previous conviction!)
21 Oct 1889 Clerkenwell General Session - Rose was given 12 months for Larceny and Receiving.

I had another look for Rosina/Rose Daniels in 1891 without success, although given how often she was in and out of jail, it's very possible that she was in jail when the 1891 Census was taken!

Sent from my Lenovo YB1-X90F using Who Do You Think You Are? Magazine Forum mobile app
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby MoVidger » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:16 pm

Probably not your Alice in 1911, but thought I'd mention it anyway. In case it warrants further investigation, FMP has the Kent, Bexley Asylum Minute Books, 1901-1939 collection.

Name: A D
Age in 1911: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Islington, London, England
Civil Parish: Dartford
County/Island: Kent
Street address: London County Lunatic Asylum, Bexley
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Nil
Registration district: Dartford
Registration District Number: 43
Sub-registration district: Dartford
ED, institution, or vessel: 29-31, 37
Piece: 3791
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby SDV » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:48 am

Mo - you could well be right that the "dancer" is Alice, the age and area certainly fits. Two things concern me:

1. On the workhouse admissions register she is marked as CoE, but both Alice and Rosina were raised in the faith of their mother, who was Catholic. Her father and step-mother, as far as I know, were CoE in name, but in practice were indifferent to religion, which has been the case for all subsequent generations. Rosina certainly took her religion a bit more seriously, being buried in the Catholic section of the cemetery. George Thomas and Katherine had three daughters together: Rosina, Alice and Caroline. Catholic baptisms have been found for both Rosina (1868) and Caroline (1871), but not for Alice.I have always thought it strange that there should be no baptism for the middle daughter. Caroline died aged 5 weeks in Dec 1871.

2. The comment in the article that none of her female relatives wanted to know about the child. I could believe this of her step-mother who was far from a good influence with a very large family. I find it harder to believe of her sister, who by this time had settled down with Thomas Morris and having children of her own. I also find it hard to believe of her Grandparents, Charles and Eliza, who had taken Alice herself in back in 1891 together with another grand-daughter.

I wonder how to track down (1) her dancing career, (2) the young child and (3) the previous suicide attempt?
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby MoVidger » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:04 pm

You'll notice the 1899 newspaper article for the suicide attempt uses "actress" (in quotes). I took that to mean she probably wasn't, or wished she was. It also mentions she had a problem with drink.

The daughter isn't with her in the 1901 census. I wonder if she was being raised by someone else by then? Or possibly deceased. Too bad the article didn't mention the child's name. I did a brief search for baptisms/births circa 1897/98, using Alice Daniels for the mother's name. I didn't see anything, unless I missed it. The child could've been registered under the father's surname, but we don't now that either.
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby SDV » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:27 pm

In the workhouse register she is simply a "dancer".

I also had a look on the GRO index, without any success.
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby Templ4r » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:44 pm

Interesting article in october 1899 says she has furniture at her house in Clapham and the "older" foreign gentleman she lived with was about to leave the country, his furniture was for sale.
He is described as a Brute and why she drinks, they've lived as man and wife for 4 months. The childs father is dead.
She and the child would be supported by members of her profession, so she probably could be an Actress.
Mr Holmes, a Missionary is going to take care of her for 12 months.
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actress and her child.jpg
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Last edited by Templ4r on Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby MoVidger » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:34 pm

Gosh, I missed that article. Interesting how it mentions "prisoner's female relatives absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the little girl". And "a month ago the prisoner was charged with attempting suicide by throwing himself over London Bridge".

There is an Alice Daniels (described as "serio-comic") name-checked in London newspapers during August and September 1898. See "The Era" and "Graphic".
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby SDV » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:56 pm

Looking at some of the other reports of the court hearing, Alice's daughter was 18 m or 2 yrs, so must have been born in 1896-98, probably in Islington. This is where the GRO index and its search mechanism is infuriating. Even though its displays the mother's maiden name, it won't let you search without a known surname, which of course you don't know. An idiotic system, poorly designed, and that's without mentioning their 250 limit and plus/minus 2 yrs limit.

Where does Clapham come from?
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Re: Where were they in 1891?

Postby SDV » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:27 pm

I have now looked for all the female DANIELS born in Islington between 1895-1898. All have fathers, except for Jessie who was born Q2 1895, though this seems a little early given the ages in the reports. Of course, she may not have been born in Islington.
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