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Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

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Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Gene-al » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:51 pm

From the posted photos, can anyone suggest the regiment for my great uncle, born William Eastham Cyril Jordan, 1899 in Redhill, Surrey. The sleeve badge (LG) is thought to be Light Machine Gun Marksman - Guards. He was known to family as simply ‘Cyril’ and died as Charles William in 1930 in a motorcycle accident in Croydon with mother Annie Jordan. He played with his given names, so any name combination is possible.

From there, one hopes to find his service record(s).

There was ‘an interesting’ record for a Cyril Ernest Jordan (557211 - London Regt) on Ancestry but checked him out and he is totally different person with family.

Thanks for any guidance given.ImageImageImage


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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:53 pm

LG is the Trade & Proficiency badge for Lewis Gunner. (MG would be Machine Gunner and HG Hotchkiss Gunner, apparently).

The cap badge is, I believe, that of the Royal Sussex Regiment. The way that the plume turns over at the top appears to be unique.

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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby fhb » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:06 am

It looks to me to be a variation of the Army Ordnance Corp badge without the Garter and a fkag instead of the crown.

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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby fhb » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:09 am

Looks like I was wrong with the suggestion of RAOC. Definitely looks like Royal Sussex

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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Lyndale » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:44 am

Hi Gene-al, Adrian was on the right rack with the Royal Sussex Regiment, but it was the regular army cap badge that he spotted, which is distinctly different to the one on Cyril’s cap, which belongs to the 5th (Cinque Ports) Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, their (pre-war part-time) Territorial Force Battalion; see the cap badge photo that I’ve uploaded, which is a match. Therefore Cyril first enlisted in this unit (he may not have been in the TF pre-war) which had a drill hall in Hastings. The cap he’s wearing is the softer version of the other ranks peaked cap, which was not introduced until 1917 and he has indeed qualified with the 5th RSR as a Lewis Gunner, but not with the ‘Guards’ as per your message. The battalion was renumbered in August 1914 as the 1/5th Battalion and went to France by Feb 1915 as part of the 2nd Brigade of the regular army's 1st Division. On 20-08-15 it became the Pioneer battalion (a works unit for trench, road work etc, but still armed and could be used as a normal fighting unit when needed) of the 48th Division. In November 1917 it went with the 48th Division to Italy and at the time of the Armistice it was based in Austria.
The question is, what name string did Cyril use when he enlisted? This is because he’s not under Cyril or William or Charles Jordon in the WW1 medal index cards, or the WW1 campaign medal rolls, which both databases have survived intact. The only two men surnamed Jordon in the RSR medal rolls are Leslie Foster G/18989 (9th & 1/4th Bns) and Wallace G/20284 (12th and 2nd Bns). In the medal rolls is a Charles William Jordon 77408 who served in the Liverpool Reg’t, then transferred as 52444 to the Labour Corps. It seems to me that the photo is evidence that Cyril was serving in the 5th Bn RSR by 1917, but he may not have gone overseas (thus won’t be in the medal rolls) because they did raise a Reserve 2/5th (Cinque Ports) Bn in Nov 1915, into which those men in the 1/5th who had not signed the Imperial Service Obligation (agreeing to served overseas) were put. This lasted until conscription was introduced in Jan 1916, when those fit enough were transferred to other regiments, but even in this case, I can’t find him going overseas using any of his regular name string. The alternative is that Cyril enlisted using a completely different name string, or even a different surname. I’m intrigued with your find on Ancestry of Pte 557211 Cyril Eastham Jordon of the London Reg’t. Whilst you have discarded him, please tell me where on Ancestry you found him? You should also be aware that over 4 million (about 70%) of the WW1 army service records were destroyed by an air raid during the 1940 London Blitz and there is no surviving dossier for Cyril under any of his names. If you send me a private message in the PM segment of the site, with your email address, I'll try and do more research.
Regards Lyndale in Melbourne Australia.
Attachments
WDYTYA Forum - Jordon Cap Badge 5th Bn Royal Sussex Regiment (TF).jpg
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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Gene-al » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:20 pm

Thanks so much to all respondents to my query, particularly Lyndale and Adrian.
I am humbled by your extensive knowledge and efforts to answer what might have been thought a simple request. I guess the lack of positive clues did not help.

Given the lack of results, I checked again the prime candidate (Cyril Jordan, 557211 London Regt) but he has a solid history of birth cert, marriage in 1924 and probate left to named wife in 1965. My Cyril died well documented in 1930 from a motorcycle accident with his Mother riding pillion. Not even he could lead that double life!

This candidate (557211) was found on Ancestry’s British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920.

My other current hope is that I may find an obituary in the local press (Croydon Advertiser) that might give a nod to his service record!

What is the significance of the three lions passant on this Cinque Port badge.

Thanks for all your thoughts and efforts and suggestions.

Alan


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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Lyndale » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:37 am

Hi Gene-al, I'VE FOUND HIM! Cyril’s WW1 service record is alas one of the 65% odd destroyed in the 1940 London Blitz by a direct hit by an incendiary bomb which caused a devastating fire. I’ve checked on those surviving under JORDAN and JORDON and he’s not there. William Eastham Cyril JORDAN is only documented in only one obscure database found on both FMP and Forces War Records called “Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933”. His details are as follows: Name: W.E.C. Jordan, Attestation Date & Place: 26-08-1916 Croydon (Gene; he was conscripted on reaching 18 years of age). Age: 18 years + 3 months, Birth Year: 1898 (Gene; his GRO birth registration is Q4 1898 Reigate reg distr, 2a/180). Occupation: Furnisher, Height: 5ft + 6 inches, Weight: 122lbs, Chest Size: 31 inches, Address of Next-of-Kin: 27 Leslie Park Road, Croydon (Gene; this matches his parents address in the 1911 census). Regiment: Bedfordshire Regiment, Number: 28007, Medical Category: B1. Notes: Conscripted men, Recruitment Register No-1 INFANTRY. (Gene; Medical B1 is described as follows “Those who, while not attaining the standard of Grade AI, were able to stand a fair amount of physical strain and were likely to improve if trained. Men in this Grade had to be able, when trained, to march six miles with ease. They had to have fair sight and hearing and have average muscular development”. I have checked the campaign medal index cards and the campaign medal rolls on Ancestry and Cyril is not in them, thus this means that he either never served overseas (no medal if stationed only in Britain) or, he was sent overseas, probably France, but after the Armistice 11-11-1918, thus once the war was over, soldiers arriving in an ex war-zone after that date were not eligible for campaign medals.
From my knowledge of how the army worked during WW1, training would have taken 6-9 months, but young soldiers such as Cyril, were not allowed to go overseas until they reached the age of 19. This would have been Q4 1917, thus more than 13 months of the war to still run. I therefore believe that either his B1 medical category never improved to the A1 required or he was therefore retained to serve within Britain, or, they kept him serving longer in England and he never went overseas until very late at a date after November 1918. At some point after he was enlisted and trained as a Lewis Gunner, Cyril was obviously transferred from the Bedford Regiment to the 2/5th Bn (later called the 5th Reserve Bn) Royal Sussex Regiment, which by 1917 was based at Tunbridge Wells and never went abroad. I date this photograph to be late 1918 or early to mid-1919.
The cap badge of the 5th (Cinque Ports) Territorial Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, was used from 1908 to 1947. A Maltese cross badge with ball-tipped cleft ends, behind which is a Roussillon plume. In the centre, on a circular background, is a shield bearing the arms of the Cinque Ports, which shows three creatures, each a halve of a lions joined to the back of a ship, which is the heraldic arms of the Warden of the ancient Cinque Ports, which are the Sussex ports of Hastings, New Romney, Hythe, Dover and Sandwich. Cheers Lyndale
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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby fhb » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:12 am

Congratulations! May I suggest that you try to contact the Museum/archive for both tegiments as often they hold information in their archives about individuals, which the other archives don't have. It's worked for me.

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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Gene-al » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:23 pm

Lyndale wrote:Hi Gene-al, I'VE FOUND HIM! Cyril’s WW1 service record is alas one of the 65% odd destroyed in the 1940 London Blitz by a direct hit by an incendiary bomb which caused a devastating fire. I’ve checked on those surviving under JORDAN and JORDON and he’s not there. William Eastham Cyril JORDAN is only documented in only one obscure database found on both FMP and Forces War Records called “Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933”. His details are as follows: Name: W.E.C. Jordan, Attestation Date & Place: 26-08-1916 Croydon (Gene; he was conscripted on reaching 18 years of age). Age: 18 years + 3 months, Birth Year: 1898 (Gene; his GRO birth registration is Q4 1898 Reigate reg distr, 2a/180). Occupation: Furnisher, Height: 5ft + 6 inches, Weight: 122lbs, Chest Size: 31 inches, Address of Next-of-Kin: 27 Leslie Park Road, Croydon (Gene; this matches his parents address in the 1911 census). Regiment: Bedfordshire Regiment, Number: 28007, Medical Category: B1. Notes: Conscripted men, Recruitment Register No-1 INFANTRY. (Gene; Medical B1 is described as follows “Those who, while not attaining the standard of Grade AI, were able to stand a fair amount of physical strain and were likely to improve if trained. Men in this Grade had to be able, when trained, to march six miles with ease. They had to have fair sight and hearing and have average muscular development”. I have checked the campaign medal index cards and the campaign medal rolls on Ancestry and Cyril is not in them, thus this means that he either never served overseas (no medal if stationed only in Britain) or, he was sent overseas, probably France, but after the Armistice 11-11-1918, thus once the war was over, soldiers arriving in an ex war-zone after that date were not eligible for campaign medals.
From my knowledge of how the army worked during WW1, training would have taken 6-9 months, but young soldiers such as Cyril, were not allowed to go overseas until they reached the age of 19. This would have been Q4 1917, thus more than 13 months of the war to still run. I therefore believe that either his B1 medical category never improved to the A1 required or he was therefore retained to serve within Britain, or, they kept him serving longer in England and he never went overseas until very late at a date after November 1918. At some point after he was enlisted and trained as a Lewis Gunner, Cyril was obviously transferred from the Bedford Regiment to the 2/5th Bn (later called the 5th Reserve Bn) Royal Sussex Regiment, which by 1917 was based at Tunbridge Wells and never went abroad. I date this photograph to be late 1918 or early to mid-1919.
The cap badge of the 5th (Cinque Ports) Territorial Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, was used from 1908 to 1947. A Maltese cross badge with ball-tipped cleft ends, behind which is a Roussillon plume. In the centre, on a circular background, is a shield bearing the arms of the Cinque Ports, which shows three creatures, each a halve of a lions joined to the back of a ship, which is the heraldic arms of the Warden of the ancient Cinque Ports, which are the Sussex ports of Hastings, New Romney, Hythe, Dover and Sandwich. Cheers Lyndale




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Re: Regiment of William Eastham Cyril Jordan

Postby Gene-al » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:24 pm

Gene-al wrote:
Lyndale wrote:Hi Gene-al, I'VE FOUND HIM! Cyril’s WW1 service record is alas one of the 65% odd destroyed in the 1940 London Blitz by a direct hit by an incendiary bomb which caused a devastating fire. I’ve checked on those surviving under JORDAN and JORDON and he’s not there. William Eastham Cyril JORDAN is only documented in only one obscure database found on both FMP and Forces War Records called “Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933”. His details are as follows: Name: W.E.C. Jordan, Attestation Date & Place: 26-08-1916 Croydon (Gene; he was conscripted on reaching 18 years of age). Age: 18 years + 3 months, Birth Year: 1898 (Gene; his GRO birth registration is Q4 1898 Reigate reg distr, 2a/180). Occupation: Furnisher, Height: 5ft + 6 inches, Weight: 122lbs, Chest Size: 31 inches, Address of Next-of-Kin: 27 Leslie Park Road, Croydon (Gene; this matches his parents address in the 1911 census). Regiment: Bedfordshire Regiment, Number: 28007, Medical Category: B1. Notes: Conscripted men, Recruitment Register No-1 INFANTRY. (Gene; Medical B1 is described as follows “Those who, while not attaining the standard of Grade AI, were able to stand a fair amount of physical strain and were likely to improve if trained. Men in this Grade had to be able, when trained, to march six miles with ease. They had to have fair sight and hearing and have average muscular development”. I have checked the campaign medal index cards and the campaign medal rolls on Ancestry and Cyril is not in them, thus this means that he either never served overseas (no medal if stationed only in Britain) or, he was sent overseas, probably France, but after the Armistice 11-11-1918, thus once the war was over, soldiers arriving in an ex war-zone after that date were not eligible for campaign medals.
From my knowledge of how the army worked during WW1, training would have taken 6-9 months, but young soldiers such as Cyril, were not allowed to go overseas until they reached the age of 19. This would have been Q4 1917, thus more than 13 months of the war to still run. I therefore believe that either his B1 medical category never improved to the A1 required or he was therefore retained to serve within Britain, or, they kept him serving longer in England and he never went overseas until very late at a date after November 1918. At some point after he was enlisted and trained as a Lewis Gunner, Cyril was obviously transferred from the Bedford Regiment to the 2/5th Bn (later called the 5th Reserve Bn) Royal Sussex Regiment, which by 1917 was based at Tunbridge Wells and never went abroad. I date this photograph to be late 1918 or early to mid-1919.
The cap badge of the 5th (Cinque Ports) Territorial Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, was used from 1908 to 1947. A Maltese cross badge with ball-tipped cleft ends, behind which is a Roussillon plume. In the centre, on a circular background, is a shield bearing the arms of the Cinque Ports, which shows three creatures, each a halve of a lions joined to the back of a ship, which is the heraldic arms of the Warden of the ancient Cinque Ports, which are the Sussex ports of Hastings, New Romney, Hythe, Dover and Sandwich. Cheers Lyndale




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