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Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

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Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby Beverley Stephens » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:55 am

Caroline Peneycad’s (many variants of the spelling) parents, Mary and Charles and their children had previously been admitted to the Shoreditch workhouse and she was born there on 1 Dec 1826. They were all discharged on 1 Jan 1827.

Whilst at the workhouse Caroline was baptized (Ancestry – England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975) on 24 Dec 1826 at St Leonard’s, Shoreditch. The record states her date of birth as 6 Dec 1826, but I am inclined to accept the workhouse record date is the correct one. Her surname is written Pennycod.

The actual parish register for St Leonard’s for Dec 1826 and several months after, does not have an entry for Caroline’s baptism.

If a child was born in the workhouse would their baptism have been entered in a separate register? Or is there another explanation for the event not being in the parish register?

Thank you.
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:11 am

OK - on a swift look, confused I am...

Here's the Ancestry entry:
Name: Caroline Pennycod
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 6 Dec 1826
Birth Place: England
Baptism Date: 24 Dec 1826
Baptism Place: St Leonard's, Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Father: Charles Pennycod
Mother: Mary
FHL Film Number: 396247


I then went to the FamilySearch Catalogue on https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog and asked what film 396247 might be... It's part of the film collection "Parish registers for St. Leonard's Church, Shoreditch, 1558-1901". So far so good. If you go to that film collection and look for 396247, you find it's described as:
Baptisms 1885-1901, Family History Library, ... 396247


What years?!! You can then ask for a listing of all 46,387 results for that film and have a look. According to the search there are 1527 baptism in the 1830s! Last I looked the 1830s didn't fall in the range 1885-1901. My initial best guess is that the contents of another film entirely have been indexed and labelled up as if they came from 396247. So where that baptism is, I've no idea but your own researches would suggest not in the standard St. Leonard's PR.

It might be in another parish - but it might also be worth finding the film of the 1885-1901 baptismal register on Ancestry(?) (which is 396247 remember), using the filmstrip view, and seeing if there's an odd section in there that's been copied in from the Workhouse registers as you suggest. So that would mean that it was from 396247, in the 1885-1901 register, but a copy of other stuff. Yeah, confused I am.
Adrian
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby Templ4r » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:42 am

Certainly a strange one considering the name is unusual.

There is a Caroline Peneycad baptised 19 nov 1826 at St Leonards, parents John and Ruth of Hoxton Town, he's a Plane maker..

One of my line gave birth in the workhouse and the child was baptised at the church 2 days later. The birth was registered at the workhouse.
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:42 am

Battering my head against a brick wall, I'm afraid, trying to understand where that film 396247 entry comes from. It's basically the same 3 entries on the FamilySearch site, quoting the same film number.

On FS it says
Images Available
To view these images you must do one of the following:
Access the site at a family history center
Access the site at a FamilySearch affiliate library


That's a fairly standard restriction for anything theoretically available on a commercial site (such as Ancestry) - my only suggestion is that you find a local LDS family history centre or a FamilySearch affiliate library (such as the Society of Genealogists or ....?), repeat the search in FamilySearch and access the image that sits behind it. It's my suspicion that there's some bad linking behind the scenes - this data was originally in the International Genealogical Index (IGI) - sworn by and occasionally at. That did not have images originally - it was just text, based on parish registers. They appear (incorrectly in my view) to have been adding the images from the PRs to the indexes.
Adrian
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby avaline » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:44 am

To add to the confusion, on Familysearch one of the records adds this 'helpful' note:

GS Film number: 396247
Reference ID: yr 1820-1871 p 22
avaline
 
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby ianbee » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:34 pm

LMA catalogue
St Leonard Shoreditch
Register of Baptisms from the Workhouse
1820 - 1871
1 volume
Ref P91/LEN/A/007/MS07497
Not available for general access. Please use microfilm (but which one?)

Hackney Archives also have microfilms
1820 (8 Aug) – 1838 (16 Mar) on microfilm XP/1/16
1838 - 1873 on microfilm XP/510

I have looked up a Shoreditch workhouse baptism some years ago, unfortunately I can't lay my hands on my notes of it at the moment (chaotic record keeping), but I should have noted the film number, etc.

AdrianB38 wrote:it might also be worth finding the film of the 1885-1901 baptismal register on Ancestry(?) (which is 396247 remember), using the filmstrip view, and seeing if there's an odd section in there that's been copied in from the Workhouse registers as you suggest.


I think no go, ancestry have filmed the registers themselves. Which is good of course, it's what we want. Except I feel their efforts in London (when they have bothered) leave something to be desired in quality terms (fuzzy).Though they have done a good job with the directories, barring their bad habit of missing pages.
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:50 pm

avaline wrote:To add to the confusion, on Familysearch one of the records adds this 'helpful' note:
GS Film number: 396247
Reference ID: yr 1820-1871 p 22


Avaline - I think that genuinely is helpful! Look at the year range there - 1820-1871

Now look at Ian's bit from the LMA Catalogue:
LMA catalogue
St Leonard Shoreditch
Register of Baptisms from the Workhouse
1820 - 1871
1 volume


It's exactly the same year range. So the catalogue description suggests that there is a single, separate volume of baptisms from the workhouse covering 1820-1871. The 3rd version of Caroline's baptism in FS refers to 1820-1871 p 22. I therefore suggest that Caroline's baptism is on page 22 of the Workhouse Register of Baptisms and not in the Parish Register of Baptisms.

What seems to have happened is that the FamilySearch cataloguing and / or indexing people have lost the information that these particular baptisms were from the Workhouse and not the Parish Register - hence film 396247 has the index at least for the Workhouse baptisms - which is why their 1820-1871 dates are way outside the date range for the parish registers on 396247. Goodness knows if they've even got the images for the Workhouse register - the index was done years ago for the IGI and the images grafted on later.

Beverley asked If a child was born in the workhouse would their baptism have been entered in a separate register? - looks like the answer's yes, Caroline is on the Workhouse register, but I don't know where the film for that is. Thanks guys!
Adrian
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby avaline » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:22 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:
avaline wrote:To add to the confusion, on Familysearch one of the records adds this 'helpful' note:
GS Film number: 396247
Reference ID: yr 1820-1871 p 22


Avaline - I think that genuinely is helpful! Look at the year range there - 1820-1871

Now look at Ian's bit from the LMA Catalogue:
LMA catalogue
St Leonard Shoreditch
Register of Baptisms from the Workhouse
1820 - 1871
1 volume


It's exactly the same year range. So the catalogue description suggests that there is a single, separate volume of baptisms from the workhouse covering 1820-1871. The 3rd version of Caroline's baptism in FS refers to 1820-1871 p 22. I therefore suggest that Caroline's baptism is on page 22 of the Workhouse Register of Baptisms and not in the Parish Register of Baptisms.



Yes, as soon as I saw Ian's reference from the LMA it became clear, but it certainly wasn't from the FS catalogue alone! I had hoped it was lurking on Ancestry somewhere, but I haven't found it so far (although a ridiculous number of their un-indexed images have the completely wrong description against them)
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby Beverley Stephens » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:09 am

Wow that opened a can of worms! Thank you all so much for your contributions. I think I'll have to be satisfied with knowing that she's was baptized at St. Leonard's but may never see an image. Cheers....Bev
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Re: Caroline Penycad born 1826 in Shoreditch Workhouse

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:05 pm

The Peter Higginbotham Workhouses site http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Shoreditch/ tells us a little about the workhouse at the time of Caroline's baptism but (I think) all the pictures and maps are for the later building on the site. That later building included a combined Chapel & Dining Hall so if the earlier layout were similar then that might suggest the sort of place were Caroline was baptised.

Dreadful irony - the 1777 building where Caroline and her family were, was on a site known as the "Land of Promise" on Kingsland Road, Hoxton.
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