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Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

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Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby MysticDave » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:44 am

My mother was illegitimate, so it was only after she died in 2013 that I had a DNA test and discovered my grandfather was Jewish. he is not named on her birth certificate as it was not permitted at that time, whatever the father wanted.

It seems he was mostly Ashkenazi although I have some traces of Sephardic DNA, which seems to go through Holland to the U.K. After UK, US and the old colonies, Holland is the next highest match, so I think the Sephardic has mixed with some Ashkenazi before crossing to the UK. Mark Wright's recent episode was helpful, especially if I can get a link on to something like the Bevis Marks synagogue records somewhere and find the Dutch route.

In a poignant lesson, a distant relative gave me some information and then had a really bad seizure a few months later - so ask before it is too late! She told me that my grandfather was a Jack (so probably Jacob) Marshall, (a widely used Anglicisation of Jewish surnames, but possibly Marchlewski originally) born around 1910. He had a younger brother called David and they lived with their mother somewhere near Shamley Green, a village just south of Guildford. He and my granny, Violet Elliott, were working on a local estate run by a Mrs. Allen, when they got it together in 1929.

I like a puzzle, but I am stumped at the moment, so if this means anything to anyone, I should be glad of some help. I realise that this is a delicate issue, especially at the time, but I am only interested in my ancestry.
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby Templ4r » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:16 am

on the 1939 register a David H Marshall born 1911 is with his mother Edna A and I assume a sister Ida M at Red Brick Cottage, Shamley Green.

Looks like he was John Edwin Marshall

Sydney Tom Marshall 27
Edna Annie Marshall 30
John Edwin Marshall 5
David Henry Marshall Under 1/12

1911 in Sutton on Trent, Notts

in 1939 he's with his wife Madge at Guildford. ( Madge Jones jul 1937 v 2a p 1469 Surrey south western)
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby MysticDave » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:32 pm

Thank you very much indeed - it certainly looks possible and I got the impression that they had come from somewhere else. I seem to remember there was a possible pair on the 1911 census in East London, which seemed to fit a Jewish background, but I will look into this and let you know.
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby Templ4r » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:21 pm

in the Register of Electors from 1931 to 34 he's at The Green with his mother and then also his brother.
In 1936 Ida is also there and they are at Red Brick Cottage.

They are easy to follow back on the census', the Marshalls through Nottingham shire and Ednas side through Lincolnshire. I'd just follow them back and see if they come in through Hull or any mention of foreign lands. I can't see an immediate Jewish link, but a lot came in around the early 1800s from Eastern europe.
(and if they are the wrong line it will only cost you your time but will at least cancel them out.)
Assuming your relative gave you the right name of course.

I only do paper trail family trees, I don't use DNA yet so I don't know what percentage or how far back the DNA results indicate.
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby brunes08 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:37 pm

It might be worth your while to look at the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain. There are several other sites which you could also consider but the main one where you could find help is the one I mentioned. They are on www.jgsgb.org.uk.


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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby MysticDave » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:24 pm

That certainly answers the question about where to get more info. Thanks very much to both of you - I didn’t think I would hear anything at all!

It is odd with the DNA as I originally had it done with Britain’sDNA after the Eddie Izzard programme. The Jewish lines are clear there and the rest is as expected with a bit of Viking (Dublin g-g-granny) and mostly a Celtic lump, plus a decent French signal, which fits with ideas about the origins of the English Elliotts. However, when I moved it to MyHeritage, there is only a very vague Ashkenazi trace and I am suddenly about 65% Western European. Then when I put it on Family Tree, there is a signal from SE Europe, but otherwise nothing Jewish and the Viking has disappeared. We do have some physical Jewish characteristics.

Perhaps they have been here for longer than I thought - Lincolnshire has strong links with Holland and J Boot started the chemists in Nottingham. Well, at least I have some excellent clues!
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby Templ4r » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:43 pm

I have a big chunk of my tree from Lincolnshire ( my mothers side) I have some from the 1700s called ONN which I believe could have come over from Holland when the Dutch were draining the Fens. The second/third generation names were Anglicised. They definitely weren't Latin as the rest of the Registers around their entrys were in English.

Apart from the Onns, 2 generations of Hassall born in Wales which I think come from Cheshire previously, one Irish wife in Manchester, my whole tree is from England. and I'm back 13 generations..
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby MysticDave » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:05 pm

Thanks again - thinking about it, my mother did say that her father “hung around” until she was 4 (1934), so it makes sense. The 1921 register could be quite illuminating, I think.
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby MysticDave » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:39 pm

Just by way of an update, especially for those, who helped me out.

I have been on the free sites so far - FreeBMD/Cen - and it has been pretty straightforward. I think the family story is true as Edna’s maiden name is the same as that of my closest relative on a DNA site, about whom I did not have a clue. However, it suggested second cousin once removed, when obviously we cannot be any closer than third cousin, so it does make me think these DNA signals are stronger than they are in reality. That’s solved that!

Given that, I think the Jewish signal is exaggerated - there has been a lot of research into the Jewish diaspora and so there are lots of reference points. However, there has been a lot of movement in the last thousand years, so there are lots of places where unmutated DNA has been found. The Ashkenazi settled in the Rhineland in about 1000AD, but many head off east in the 15/16th centuries. Some did come back to Holland from the late 17th century, while the Sephardic came in during the late 16th century. The Ashkenazi also spread into Holland in the late 15th century.

It is interesting that the first Dutch drainage engineers actually came to the Isle of Axholme, which is in NE Lincolnshire rather than the Fens. They were led by Cornelius Vermuyden in 1629 and I suppose they might have stayed in their own community, which was joined by French and Walloon engineers. I suppose Marshall might be an Anglicisation of Marechal? My Marshalls are 40 miles south down the A1 around Newark by the early 1800s, but they appear to own a 60 acre farm near Sutton-on-Trent and then go in for willow basket weaving. The French signal in my DNA is quite strong and it seems that my mother’s maternal family originated from northern France, but it might be reinforced by this lot.

I can see I shall have to become a Zelenograd and get on TV with this lot!
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Re: Jack Marshall - Jewish grandfather

Postby Templ4r » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:00 pm

What about Violet Elliott? Have you gone down her line?
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