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Bigamy? Or another possible explanation.

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Re: Bigamy? Or another possible explanation.

Postby elsabels » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:09 am

You may have this information,

Fred Allen ELVEN aka Frederick George /aka Fred Gush
was b 14 May 1881 at Gravesend the son of George Wm & Emma Francis nee Gaskin

1891
he was living with his alleged 'widowed father and siblings
George Elven 42
Emma G Elven 17
George T Elven 15
Rose L Elven 13
Fred Elven 9
Elizabeth Machin 40

1895 Parents divorced ( papers on line at Ancestry) father was given the custody of the children of the marriage ( in total 5 living 1 deceased)

1895 Mother remarries Harry O Cooke

1899 alleged marriage to Margaret Weiland

1901

1904 birth of son Frederick Geo
1905 birth of dau Margaret Elizabeth
1908 birth & death of Peter
1909 birth and death of William Samuel
Birth mother desc as Margaret nee Neale / KIng

1911

1912 mother dies

1924 marries Annie L Vallins ( 1895 - 1930 )

1931 marries Edith C Vallins

1939 Yiewsley and West Drayton U.D., Middlesex, England

1950 buried Horsell Surrey abode West Drayton M'sex

Obtaining the Annie L marriage cert maybe a step forward
elsabels
 
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Bigamy? Or another possible explanation.

Postby JET » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:39 am

elsabels wrote:You may have this information,

Fred Allen ELVEN aka Frederick George /aka Fred Gush
was b 14 May 1881 at Gravesend the son of George Wm & Emma Francis nee Gaskin

1891
he was living with his alleged 'widowed father and siblings
George Elven 42
Emma G Elven 17
George T Elven 15
Rose L Elven 13
Fred Elven 9
Elizabeth Machin 40

1895 Parents divorced ( papers on line at Ancestry) father was given the custody of the children of the marriage ( in total 5 living 1 deceased)

1895 Mother remarries Harry O Cooke

1899 alleged marriage to Margaret Weiland

1901

1904 birth of son Frederick Geo
1905 birth of dau Margaret Elizabeth
1908 birth & death of Peter
1909 birth and death of William Samuel
Birth mother desc as Margaret nee Neale / KIng

1911

1912 mother dies

1924 marries Annie L Vallins ( 1895 - 1930 )

1931 marries Edith C Vallins

1939 Yiewsley and West Drayton U.D., Middlesex, England

1950 buried Horsell Surrey abode West Drayton M'sex

Obtaining the Annie L marriage cert maybe a step forward



Thanks for looking all this up. I did have most of the information you sent, apart from the birth of Peter, which I haven’t yet got round to checking, but it’s useful to see that someone else has identified the same events.
JET
 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Bigamy? Or another possible explanation.

Postby JET » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:33 am

elsabels wrote:1891 Census RG12 2048 70 16 has James, Margaret & child Olive b circa 1888 Forest Gate. Have you found this child?

The death entry I think you have found is 1902 Woodbridge Suffolk, may confirm who notified the death, etc

Margaret WIELAND

d/o Charles Wieland & Charlotte Sophie nee GAUBERT, b 08 Oct 1878 St Pancras bp 24 Nov 1879. Father desc as Hairdresser of Goodge Street, mother dies in 1881. I cannot find Margaret on the 1881 census, father is at Goodge Street.
1891 Margaret is with her mother's family RG12; Piece: 1028; Folio: 43; Page: 36
Louise S Gaubert 65
Marie C Gaubert 34
Esther M A Baker 65
Margaret Weiland 12

1899 alleged marriage to Fred ELVEN, Margaret would be 20

1901

Esther M A Baker 75
Margaret Wieland 22 niece desc as single

1907
Name: Margaret Wieland
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1879
Marriage Date: 26 Aug 1907
Marriage Place: St John, Paddington, Westminster, England
Father: Charles Wieland now a traveller
Spouse: Frederick Relf
Register Type: Parish Register

1911
11 Holly Lodge, Grosvenor Road, Twickenham
Frederick Relf 42
Margaret Relf 32
Esther Mahala Relf 2
Donald Richard Relf 8/12

Probably blows your hypothesis out of the water


Thank you for your reply, and your help.

I’m not sure why you think this blows my hypothesis out of the water - please could you elaborate?

I had spotted Margaret Wieland, daughter of Charles Wieland and the Wieland/Relf marriage, but I discounted her because the Margaret I am looking for gave her father’s name as Peter Neale, accountant, on both her Marriage Certificate and Fred junior’s Birth Certificate.

Although on her Marriage Certificate she gave the surname Wieland, she also said she was a widow, so Wieland could have been either her maiden name or her late husband’s surname. Given that she gave her father’s surname as Neale, I don’t think she is the daughter of anyone with the surname Wieland.

I even found a marriage between a King and a Wieland which I sent for, but it was John Frederick Wieland and Rosetta King, widow, daughter of John King, deceased, so that didn’t fit with “Elven, late King, formerly Neale” on Fred junior’s Birth Certificate.

So I am still left with the puzzle that I cannot find any Margaret Wieland who matches the woman on Fred senior’s Marriage Certificate, but I *can* find one who matches the one on Fred junior’s Birth Certificate.

Re Olive King, daughter of James and Margaret - that is completely new information to me, so thank you for that. I checked the GRO indexes and there is an Olive Mary King registered Q1 1889 West Ham Vol 04A Page 37 mmn Neale. Forest Gate is in the Parliamentary Constituency of West Ham, so I assume she is the right one. I haven’t managed to find her after that, but will keep looking, because she might be with her mother, Margaret in 1901, which *would* blow my hypothesis out of the water!
JET
 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Bigamy? Or another possible explanation.

Postby avaline » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:18 pm

There is an Olive King aged 22 born Stratford on the 1911 census in High Holborn, London, working as a servant to a ‘Russian Nobleman’

Also an Olive King aged 15 admitted to City Road Workhouse (Holborn) 17 March 1904, discharged 30 Mar 1904. The Creed Register shows her as Roman Catholic and gives an address of 44 Millman Street.
avaline
 
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