Switch to full style

Moderator Control Panel

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others
Post a reply

Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:57 pm

I am very confused as to who the wife of Charles William Papworth was.
He was born in 1873 in London to Charles Papworth and Martha Crump.
If I have the correct Charles, he married an Ellen Jane Fisher in 1894. (His father was listed as Charles and his year of birth as 1873, or aged 21.)
On his WW1 record this matches up.
On the 1911 census, his wife is listed as Annie Thomas/Frances Papworth, born in Ireland. The couple are both listed as 38 and having been married for 6 years.
There are 3 children listed at that address, whose name and ages match up with 3 of the 4 children listed on the WW1 record. (The other child was born after the census.)
When looking up the birth records for the children, they all list mother’s maiden name as ‘Eatwell’.
On the WW1 record, it says Ellen was a spinster when they were married.
On the marriage record for 1894, it lists her father as William Corby Fisher.
I do not understand what is going on!

Just to clarify:
Charles marries an Ellen Jane Fisher in 1894, who for some reason is called Annie Thomas/Frances Papworth (I am not sure if it says Thomas or Frances or even Francis as the middle name) on the 1911 census, and their marriage is only 6 years old instead of 16 (maybe a ‘1’ got rubbed out or something), and they have several children who all have mother’s maiden name listed as ‘Eatwell’.
Can anyone find out how this can all make sense?

The children (all born in St Pancras):
Charles William Papworth, Q3 1906;
Alfred James Papworth, Q4 1907;
Francis William Papworth, Q1 1909;
John Harold Papworth, Q1 1909;
Martha Maria Papworth, Q2 1910;
Ellen Martha Papworth, Q3 1912;
Emma Rosetta Papworth, Q3 1914.

I know this must be the correct family because Charles had a sister called Emma Rosetta Papworth, born 1875, and Rosetta is an unusual middle name.
Children Charles, William and Francis were listed on the 1911 census and were also listed on the WW1 record along with their sister Ellen.

If anyone can figure this out, that would be amazing.
Thank you.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:39 pm

Have you looked for the family in the 1901 census?
Perhaps the first wife (Ellen) died and left no children, and Charles married Annie in about 1905 - it would have been more likely that first child was born a year or so after a marriage and unusual to have a first child 12 years after marriage as suggested by the birth dates you list.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:08 pm

Adding to the confusion is another Charles William Papworth (born 30 Oct 1879) who was a Pianoforte Maker and also residing in the St Pancras area. Father: Edgar Papworth.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:17 pm

I have just had an even closer look at his WW1 Army record and it says he served a total of 11 years in 2 different regiments - 3rd London Rifles 5 years and 7th Rifle Brigade 6 years, before he was re-drafted for WW1 service. This could account for being married for 12 years and not having any children. He may have been stationed abroad, as I cannot find him in the 1901 census. But, his wife may have stayed in Britain, hence no children until his 11 years were over.
Just a possibility.
His wife's name in the WW1 record is definitely Ellen Jane, though they seem to have her surname transcribed as 'Desher' rather than 'Fisher'.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:47 pm

According to the online GRO index, these look like Charles and Ellen's children (Lydia being her mother's name). Baptisms are on Ancestry. Martha Lydia died in 1898.

PAPWORTH, HELENA ANNE MMN: FISHER
GRO Reference: 1894 D Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 622

PAPWORTH, MARTHA LYDIA MMN: FISHER
GRO Reference: 1897 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 639

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:13 pm

Probably just a red herring, but this 1911 census record looks interesting. Birthplace listed as Battersea, but do columns 6 to 9 relate to years married and number of children (born/living)? In which case 2 born, and 1 living?

Name: Ellen Jane Fisher
Age in 1911: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relation to Head: Patient
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Street address: Camberwell Infirmary (Poor Law), Brunswick Square, Camberwell
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 13
Estimated Marriage Year: 1898
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration District Number: 27
Sub-registration district: Camberwell North
ED, institution, or vessel: 35-38
Piece: 2519

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:33 pm

If the 2 births, pre-1900, are added to the family, then the 1911 census should say 7 children born, and not 5. It gets more confusing!
The profession of Charles in 1911 was ‘timber porter’ which is the same as listed on his WW1 papers.
I do not know if the regiments he was in before WW1 were regulars or reserves. He was discharged as ‘unfit’ in 1914 so his war service ended early.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:40 pm

Robbie J N wrote:On the 1911 census, his wife is listed as Annie Thomas/Frances Papworth, born in Ireland.

Annie Frances. Or maybe Annie Francis!
See also 1919, 1920 electoral registers, 21 Harrison Street.

There's a much later Pancras workhouse admission, 26.5.26, for Charles Wm Gatwell or Papworth, born 1.7.06, from 21 Harrison Street.
Nearest relative Mother Mrs Papworth, same address. Gatwell for Eatwell could be an error by someone.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:11 pm

Robbie J N wrote:If the 2 births, pre-1900, are added to the family, then the 1911 census should say 7 children born, and not 5. It gets more confusing!

But it seems unlikely that Ellen Jane (nee Fisher) is calling herself Annie Frances nee Eatwell. The question then is, what happened to Ellen?
Her parents William and Lydia are in Soho in 1901, in Westminster district (where little Martha Lydia Papworth died in 1898). Piece 101 folio 62 page 47

William Corby Fisher died in Pancras in March qtr 1904, age 64
There's an entry for him in the probate calendar for 1906, an administration (with will) granted to Lydia Fisher, widow. Curiously it says that he died 20 Feb 1906!
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ca ... 4#calendar

Widowed mother Lydia is still in Soho in 1911.
She died the following year, and left a will
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ca ... 3#calendar

Ellen Jane Fisher seems to have been born in 1875 in Westminster. There's a baptism indexed for 1877, may give birthdate.
At £1.50 each I might be tempted by those wills. Lydia's at any rate.

Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:26 pm

A possibility for Helena born November 1894 in the 1911 census? :|
Ellen Papworth, 16, born London, at St Vincent De Paul's Convent and Orphanage in Marylebone
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW22-9K1

The catholic connection is puzzling (perhaps!), but all the other candidates seem to be eliminated.
Post a reply