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Charles William Papworth - Confused!

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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby avaline » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:19 am

I think the references to the orphanage are quite possibly correct, as Helena Ann was baptised as Eleanor Anne at Our Lady of the Assumption & St Gregory (RC) on 17 Jun 1898 (born 21 Nov 1894), parents Charles William & Ellen Jane Papworth, nee Fisher.

The address given was 14 Westmoreland Street, and interestingly the baptism above listed the same address and was for Mary Ethel Osborn d/o Edwin Joseph & Harriett Osborn, nee Fisher.

The sponsor for both was Margaret Faunt.

Edwin Joseph Osborn 21 married Harriett Fisher 18 (father William Corby Fisher, Bootcloser) 13 May 1894. Ellen Fisher was a witness.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby avaline » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:13 am

Im not sure yet where Mary Ethel Osborn is in 1901, but in 1911 she was living at 7 Clyston St Clapham, Wandsworth as niece to Francis Thomas Tidman. The youngest son was Philip Walter Tidman b1904 with the mmn Osborn

Found her! In 1901 she is with her uncle again (he is recorded as Frank) at 471, Wandsworth Road, Clapham, Wandsworth
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:17 am

That is quite strange.
Helena Ann/Anne Papworth already had a baptism on 4th (or 14th) April 1895, which lists her birth date as 21st November 1894. Parents listed as Charles William and Ellen Jane. That was in a CofE church though. Address was 17 Gough Street, I think. Profession looks like it says 'wine worker', if that sounds right?
Were any other God-parents listed on the Catholic Christening records? (I take it that sponsor means God-parent.) Perhaps surnames like Baughan or Elliott, the married names of 2 of Charles's sisters? If in Latin would it be 'Patrinus fuit' and 'Matrina fuit'?

If someone changed denomination, from CofE to Catholic, could that be a justification for the marriage being annulled or something similar? I am just trying to think of a way for Charles to be re-married whilst Ellen was still alive. (I suppose he could have been a bigamist.) It seems Ellen was probably one of the 6 'alive' children on her mother's 1911 census record.

This just gets more and more complicated.
Still very confusing!
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:01 am

Edwin Joseph Osborn and Harriet were divorced in 1918.
Divorce Court File: 1220. Appellant: Edwin Joseph Osborn. Respondent: Harriet Osborn. Co-respondent: Frederick Coleman. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd].
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... r/C8014480

Can be seen on ancestry, including a copy of the marriage certificate.
Frederick Robert Coleman and Harriet are together in 1911, with a son Frederick George, at 20 Euston Street, St Pancras.

There doesn't seem to be any sign of Charles Papworth marrying Annie. More likely they just lived together as husband and wife, with Ellen still around somewhere(!)
Get a hint of that from the record I mentioned earlier
ianbee wrote:There's a much later Pancras workhouse admission, 26.5.26, for Charles Wm Gatwell or Papworth, born 1.7.06, from 21 Harrison Street.
Nearest relative Mother Mrs Papworth, same address. Gatwell for Eatwell could be an error by someone.


Robbie J N wrote:Profession looks like it says 'wine worker', if that sounds right?

Wire worker?
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:28 am

So, a possible scenario - Ellen ends up in a ‘facility’ as an inmate, her surviving daughter ends up in an orphanage. Charles ‘moves on’ with his life, shacks up with Annie Frances Eatwell, if that is her name, has 7 children with her with the surname Papworth, despite them not being married. When he is asked for the name of his wife, he correctly replies that it is Ellen Jane Papworth, nee Fisher, as he is technically still married to her, even if it is the baptism of one of the children he has with Annie. The date of Charles and Annie’s ‘marriage’ from the 1911 census is simply when they began their relationship.
Could that be how it was?


I think ‘wire worker’ sounds more likely than a ‘wine worker’, as looking again, it looks more like an ‘r’ than an ‘n’. But a timber porter could work in a cooperage where wine barrels or caskets would be made or converted for use in storing other alcoholic drinks. (I visited one in Speyside where they reshaped/resized sherry barrels so they could be used for whisky.)
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:43 pm

Hi
it could be. It's certainly plausible. If we could only find Ellen in 1901 and/or 1911 then we would know. She might of course be living with someone else, but you would think her daughter might be with her. Then again, sister Harriet's daughter Mary was with paternal relations (if I have understood avaline correctly). Not sure where Harriet is in 1901 either!

When I saw Helena's baptism (the C of E one) I found the occupation of Charles a little difficult to read because of the handwriting. I thought it might say wire worker, which seemed slightly odd for him, but am not sure about it.
Ian
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby avaline » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:58 pm

I know it doesnt help, but there is an article in Reynolds's Newspaper 12 July 1896 about "Ellen Papworth aged 18 months whose parents live at 17 Gough Street, Gray's Inn Road". She apparently went unobserved into another room and drank a quantity of paraffin and was taken to the Royal Free Hospital.

An outside possibility for Ellen Jane might be the marriage in Camberwell in 1912 between Ellen J Fisher and Joseph A Lochhead. I think these are their deaths:

LOCHHEAD, JOSEPH ANDREW 67 GRO Reference: 1944 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 525
and possibly
LOCKHEAD, ELLEN JANE 67 GRO Reference: 1943 M Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 1310
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby avaline » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:32 pm

Just checked Ellen Lochhead/Lockhead in the 1939 register and her DoB is 11 Mar 1875, occupation Tailoress.

This matches the DoB on her baptism and also her occupation in the 1891 census :)
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm

We've been waiting for you to come up with the answer, avaline! Well done.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby avaline » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:30 pm

And it makes the Ellen Jane Fisher you found in Camberwell Infirmary in 1911 an extremely strong candidate, so just 1901 to find now. Plus what became of her daughter!
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