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Charles William Papworth - Confused!

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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:37 pm

If you look up the baptism record for Martha Maria Papworth on 29th May 1910, it lists her parents as Charles and Ellen. That would contradict a theory that Ellen was dead.
Could Annie have been a nanny to the children, if their mother was sick at the time of the census?
It is all still very confusing!
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Well, we've got a likely death registration for Annie
June 1929 St Pancras 1b 101
Papworth, Annie Frances
age 56

A burial, 21 June 1929, presumably at St Pancras Cemetery.
She's also Annie Frances on the electoral registers.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:10 pm

Has anyone found a marriage between a Charles William Papworth and an Annie Frances Eatwell in approximately 1905? That might make sense, if the vicar who performed the later baptism forgot that Charles had a different wife from the mother of his first 2 children.
I am still confused!
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby MoVidger » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:14 pm

In the 1901 census, Nellie Papworth (age 6) was at St Vincent de Pauls Convent and Orphanage. If it is Helena Anne, one wonders what happened to mother Ellen Jane, if she was still alive at that point. Did she have a breakdown when Martha Lydia passed away?

If so, is she the Ellen Jane Fisher (patient) in Camberwell in 1911?
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:29 pm

Robbie J N wrote:If you look up the baptism record for Martha Maria Papworth on 29th May 1910, it lists her parents as Charles and Ellen. That would contradict a theory that Ellen was dead.
Could Annie have been a nanny to the children, if their mother was sick at the time of the census?

Father a Timber Porter.
We don't really know what is going on with Ellen at the moment.

Take it that Charles' father was the Charles Papworth living at 9 Gough Street in 1901, widowed and also a timber worker. While all this was happening with Charles junior, the father seems to have taken up with a much younger lady, Ellen Lydia Pratt or Platt, having children with her, and they eventually married in 1912?
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:43 pm

Is it possible that if Charles William Papworth was a regular in the Army, he was stationed abroad, maybe Ireland or India or somewhere like that, and his wife and surviving daughter went with him? (I know Ireland was part of the UK but their records are less available.)
They both died, hence no death record for either one in England, and he met Annie Frances Eatwell and got married, shortly before, or after, returning to England and the birth of Charles William Papworth in 1906 in St Pancras.
There is absolutely no evidence of any of this that I have found, but it would add up and make sense.
Then all that has to happen is a few times when asked for his wife's name, Charles says Ellen Jane Fisher instead of Annie Frances Eatwell, because he got them mixed up.

An example would be, Charles had a cousin whose (half) brother-in-law was stationed in Scotland, Ireland and India while in the Army, and various of his children were born there. A couple of children died in India, so there are no records for them in Britain.


So is the most likely thing, Ellen was the mother of the first 2 daughters, and Annie was the mother of the remaining 7 children?
(For the moment, I am happy to settle on that explanation, if nothing more concrete can be found.)

Thanks again for the replies.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:22 am

Theoretically you ought to get the answer to whether Ellen had died before 1911 from her mother Lydia Fisher in the census. Lydia's answer to the number of children question was that she had had 8 children born alive, 6 were still living, 2 had died.

Perhaps depending on whether you think 6 children living in 1911 suggests that Ellen should still be alive or not, I still think a small (£1.50) punt on Lydia's will wouldn't do any harm. Though of course we don't know when the will was written (or anything else about its contents!)

Military - we can only hope that Adrian or some other military expert might chance upon this and venture an opinion. If Charles was in the 3rd London Rifles/7th Rifle Brigade, then I think he wouldn't have been a regular. He might perhaps have been in South Africa for the Boer War - we haven't found him in 1901 - but I haven't seen any evidence from medal rolls that he was.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:54 pm

ianbee wrote:... If Charles was in the 3rd London Rifles/7th Rifle Brigade, then I think he wouldn't have been a regular. ...

You're getting good at this....

3rd London Rifles and then 7th Rifle Brigade sounds great - but the names don't make much sense to me. They certainly aren't official names for that period.

My best guess for this pairing is inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_(City_of_London)_Battalion,_London_Regiment and that guess is:
- "3rd London Rifles" is the 3rd City of London Rifle Volunteer Corps (RVC) (which was part of the King's Royal Rifle Corps - indeed it was officially the 11th Volunteer Battalion of the KRRC but apparently didn't use the title. (I highlight the Rifle in KRRC and not that in RVC because RVCs are the standard title used across the country.)

- "7th Rifle Brigade"? Well, in 1908, in the Haldane Reforms, the "3rd City of London RVC" was allocated to the new all-Territorial London Regiment, becoming the 7th (City of London) Battalion. I can't see any justification for calling it the 7th Rifle Brigade. But there wasn't a 7th Battalion of the Rifle Brigade (which is actually a Regiment) pre-WW1. According to the Long Long Trail, "The London Rifle Brigade ... was a title of the 5th Battalion of the London Regiment". Maybe the name got used for more than just the 7th, informally.

That is my best guess. Importantly it dates the turnover so, if the changeover was mid-1908, then
- "3rd London Rifles 5y" becomes 1903 - 1908
- "7th Rifle Brigade 6y" becomes 1908 - 1914

However, these are Volunteer and Territorial battalions - not Regulars - although the 3rd City of London did contribute *some* troops to the 2nd Boer War (1900-1902). This means he was doing his day job (wherever that was) during the 11y and just doing training and yearly(?) camps. At the end of the above period, he volunteers for the Rifle Brigade, as per the Attestation on Ancestry.
Adrian
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby Robbie J N » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:53 pm

So Charles was in the reserves/TA, not the regulars, so likely never left the country. Where was he in 1901?

The Fisher family, with mother's maiden name Barritt (or Barratt or Barrett or Barnett on the GRO) have 6 children listed on the census records from 1871-1911. (Marriage was in June 1861.) They were, from the GRO, Mary Corby (Q4 1861), Eliza Corbie (Q3 1866), Lydia (Q4 1871), Ellen Jane (Q2 1875), Harriet (Q2 1876) and William Samuel David (Q1 1878). Another contender for a 7th child is William Samuel, born Q1 1869, dies Q4 1870. I cannot confirm any other children, the 8th, for sure from the possibilities, as there seems to be another Fisher/Barrett family close by in St Pancras producing several children at the same time.

As for ordering wills, with the current rate they are releasing them, I have a slight hunch that the 1921 census will become available before any wills ordered today would become available! (I am still waiting on 10 wills that are 6 weeks past the due date. Probably a slight exaggeration with the 1921 census, but just before the end of the year might be a more reasonable estimate.)


The reason for my query, initially, was to ascertain who the mother, or indeed mothers, were of Charles's children, as I am his 1st cousin 3x removed, and am not related to either of his wives. I have created a list, and a small tree on Ancestry, listing the first 3 generations of descendants of Charles's maternal grandparents, of which I am also descended. I just wanted the names to be as accurate as possible, and the mothers assigned to the correct children. Only one other person on Ancestry, out of 30+ trees on the Crump family from North Cerney, Gloucestershire, has managed to get his maternal grandmother's surname correct so I thought I should create one with the correct information in it. (Just in case you are wondering, I know I am right, without being arrogant, because my great-great-grandmother, Charles's aunty, ordered a copy of her own birth certificate over 100 years ago, and my father still has it in his possession, which lists the correct mother's maiden name.)


Thanks again for all the help.
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Re: Charles William Papworth - Confused!

Postby ianbee » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:32 pm

We can possibly add in an earlier Eliza
Born 11 Oct 1863
Baptism (private), St Luke Westminster, 15 Aug 1864
parents William + Lydia Fisher
2 Little Windmill St
father a Boot Closer

Some more birthdates from baptisms at St James Westminster
Mary 20 Oct 1861 (bap 1874)
Eliza 11 Aug 1866
Lydia 30 Sept 1871 (baptized in 1874 with Eliza)
Ellen Jane 11 March 1875
Harriet 3 April 1876 (baptized in 1877 with Ellen Jane)
William Samuel David 6 Dec 1877 (bap 1882)

Along with that birth reg mentioned in St James Westminster, March 1869 1a 426
Fisher, William Samuel, mother Barrett
That might be all eight?

Thanks as always to Adrian for his help earlier.
Ian
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