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Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

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Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:21 pm

Hello all,
I am a bit stuck trying to work out the parentage of a possible relative. His name, according to the 1881 census, was Ernest Crump, born approx 1876 in Paulton, Wiltshire (if that is an actual place or just a transcription error).

He is listed with his father William Crump, his mother Dinah, and his 3 siblings Percy, Charles and Ann. However, the 3 siblings are not actually Crumps, as William is their step-father, their father was John Scriven/Scrivens. They are listed on the 1871 census with their original surnames. Their mother was originally Dinah Harding, who had an illegitimate daughter named Amelia in about 1853, then married John, had the 3 previously mentioned children, and was widowed.

William was married to an Emma Coates in 1860, and had 3 daughters, at least, Sabina Hester, Mary Elizabeth and Emma. He is listed in the 1871 census with his wife and 2 youngest children, Sabina Hester died within a few months of birth.

William and Dinah married in 1878 in Gloucestershire, which is after the date Ernest would have been born.
Was Ernest the son of William and Emma, or the son of John and Dinah?
I have checked the GRO for an Ernest with surname Crump, Scriven/Scrivens and Harding, and cannot find a birth record that matches.
If he was the son of William then he is a relative of mine, if not then he is merely a step-relative.
Can anyone help to clarify who he was the child of?

Maybe the William Crump, born 1836 in North Cerney, who married Emma Coates in 1860, is different to the William Crump, born 1836 in North Cerney, who married Dinah Scrivens in 1878.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide with regard to this.

(William was my great-great-grandmother’s brother, so Ernest could be her nephew and therefore my great-grandfather’s 1st cousin.)
Robbie J N
 
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby MoVidger » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:29 pm

I think it's Poulton, which used to be in Gloucestershire (near the Wiltshire border).

The online GRO index has these births in the Cirencester district (which the parish of Poulton was part of).

SCRIVENS, ERNEST AMBROSE MMN: YOUNG
GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in CIRENCESTER Volume 06A Page 383

HARDING, ERNEST ALBERT MMN: ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in CIRENCESTER Volume 06A Page 390

On FMP, there are two BA service records for an Ernest Crump, born 1876. Father is a William Crump of The Green, Newnham, Glos. One record is 1893, the other 1894.
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:22 pm

Thanks.
On the 1881 census, 1891 census and on his burial record for 13 October 1894, William Crump’s address is given as Fairford. There is a different William Crump who can be found in 1881 and 1891 in Newnham, also with a son called Ernest, even giving a middle initial as Ernest F Crump in 1891. (I think the ‘F’ is for Frederick.)
The Newnham Crumps would be a different family.

On William Crump’s daughter Emma’s baptism record for 1866 in Harnhill, there is a child with surname Scrivens on the same page. Possibly a relative of John Scrivens.

I am not sure where any of the children are on the 1891 census as William is living with his wife Dinah and her mother Harriet Harding.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby ianbee » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:31 pm

Robbie J N wrote:Their mother was originally Dinah Harding, who had an illegitimate daughter named Amelia in about 1853, then married John, had the 3 previously mentioned children, and was widowed.

Amelia, 17, is with John Scrivens and Dinah in Ampney St Mary in 1871.
And she married there in 1872 to George Cooper.
George and Amelia had a son, Ernest Charles, baptized at Poulton, 10 October 1875. Abode Poulton, father George a Labourer.

Birth reg
Sep 1875 Cirencester 6a 376
Cooper, Ernest Charles
mother's maiden surname Harding

Ernest is not listed with George and Amelia Cooper in 1881 in Barnsley, Gloucestershire.
But he is with them there in 1891, Earnest Cooper, son, 15, born Poulton.
Meanwhile in 1891 there is no Ernest with William and Dinah Crump in Fairford.

Do you ever see Ernest Crump born Poulton again? Could Ernest Cooper have been with William and Dinah in 1881 and recorded as Crump?
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:57 pm

Thanks, I think that must be the answer.
Other than Crump continually being incorrectly transcribed as Cramp, there are several other errors. In 1891, Harriet Harding is listed as mother of the head, when in fact she was the mother-in-law.
Ann Scriven(s) has Fanny Maria on her birth record, but seemed to be Annie Maria when she married William Larner. Her mother Dinah Crump was living with her in 1901 in King’s Norton.

Putting everything together, Ernest was in fact William Crump’s step-grandson, not his son or his step-son. (Or to avoid any ambiguity, Ernest was William’s step-daughter’s son.)
Phew, thanks for clearing that up. It turned out to be slightly confusing with all the incorrect surnames and family relationships listed on the 1881 census.

Now I can get back to trying to work out what happened to Mary Elizabeth Crump, born 1863, and Emma Crump, born 1866. (I think Emma Crump, nee Coates, and her daughter Emma were both buried within a month of each other in January and February 1877. Not sure about what happened to daughter Mary Elizabeth, possibly a servant in the 1881 census, but maybe not.)

Thanks again for all the research.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby ianbee » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:25 pm

Could she be the Mary Elizabeth Crump who married Herbert Joseph F Freebery in Brentord district in 1893?
Don't think the marriage is online, but in the census they are living in Acton and Ealing with two sons and are recorded as Freebrey. Which matches Herbert's birth and death registrations. He was from the same part of the world as Mary, and younger, so possibly she may have reduced her age in the census. Mary Feebrey says that she was born Foss Bridge or Fost Bridge?
Anyway, Mary E Freebery was still alive for the 1939 Register and living in Ealing.
Death
Sep 1944 Brentford 3a 303
Freebery, Mary Elizabeth
age 80

And a burial on ancestry.
And probate, as Freebrey! Died 21 Aug 1944.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ca ... 2#calendar
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby woodchal » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:40 pm

Fossebridge, Cheltenham GL54 3JN - about 8 miles from Poulton
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby woodchal » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:49 pm

Name: Mary Elizabeth Crump
Registration Year: 1893
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Brentford
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 209
Records on Page:
Name
Mary Elizabeth Crump
Emily Sarah Field
Herbert Joseph F Freebery
Charles Daniel Tandy
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby Robbie J N » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:50 pm

There is a place called ‘Fossebridge’ which is right next to Chedworth, which is where Mary’s younger sister Emma had her birth registered. Mary and her older sister Sabina were registered in Northleach which is a bit further away, but still quite close.
On the 1891 census, there is a Mary Crump living in Fairford who was born in Fossebridge (transcribed as Fosbudge) aged 25, which would be a bit off, but not that many years.

Strange if she ended up in Ealing, as her aunty Elizabeth Ann/Anne McCarthy, olim Brett, nee Crump, was living in Harrow when she died in 1921. Not too far away.
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Re: Ernest Crump - 1876 Wiltshire

Postby woodchal » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:52 pm

Herbert died 1937, Mary Elizabeth widow given probate

Name: Herbert Joseph Fowles Freebrey
Death Date: 20 Oct 1937
Death Place: Middlesex, England
Probate Date: 18 Nov 1937
Probate Registry: London, England
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