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Ships Name and Master

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Ships Name and Master

Postby miles_osborne » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:09 pm

My Great Great Grandfather, James Phillips served on Captain Nares 1875 HMS Discovery expedition to the Artic.

He returned and did some other ships and then I lose touch with what happenened.

Family history say he died at around 30 on Burton's(?) Australia expedition of which I can find nothing.

However trawling through seaman deaths around when we think he died I came across the below. However I can't read what ship it says or the name of the master (which could help)

It's the second ship in this list and J Phillips is listed as age 32 when died.

Anyone able to make these names out?
44995_bt_159_05_0032.jpeg
44995_bt_159_05_0032.jpeg (99.32 KiB) Viewed 203 times


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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:23 pm

From Ancestry: This fellow's rank is "A.B." (able seaman). I don't see a column for Ship's Master on this particular image.

Name: J Philips
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1853
Death Date: 6 Dec 1885
Death Age: 32
Residence Place: Bayford Quay Shields
Ship: Burswell

Name: BURSWELL
Type: Cargo Ship
Launched: 02/02/1878
Completed: 03/1878
Builder: Tyne Iron Shipbuilding Company
Yard: Willington Quay
History: 07/03/1878 Joseph Temperley, Newcastle
12/1885: Missing
Comments: 06/12/1885: Passed Dover on a voyage from the Tyne to Genoa with a cargo of coal
Subsequently posted missing, presumed she sank.
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:41 pm

When you say "Burton's(?) Australia expedition" are you referring to the explorer Sir Richard Burton (1821-1890)? If so, I don't think he was in Australia during the 1880s.

Is he the James Phillips, born 22 Feb 1854 in York? It appears his period of service was from 1 Jan 1873 (Indus) to 3 Aug 1880 (Implacable). Although there is a "From" date of 4 Aug 1881 which appears to be added underneath (but no ship name indicated) So did his naval service end with the Implacable, or did he sail with another ship afterwards?

There's a JP (b 1854) living in Stoke Damerel with wife and two children in the 1881 census. He's a labourer in the Keyham Yard.

If I have the correct family, then wife Louisa is still "married" in the 1891 census and describes herself as "wife of confectioners cook and fruiterer". Wouldn't this mean James was still alive in 1891 and no longer in the Navy? (I note that she re-married in 1898). But as you say, your family believe he died around age 30 (circa 1884).
Last edited by MoVidger on Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:28 pm

Err, yes, transcription leaves a bit to be desired.

"Bayford Quay Shields" ("Last Place of Abode") is actually "Bay Horse Quay, N Shlds [North Shields]". But then again, I have the luxury of time and the ability to check the plausibility of my reading with Google.

The previous column is headed "Nationality" (birthplace perhaps?) and appears to read "Fiume", which is now a sea-port in Croatia.

Further, I'm not actually convinced that's a "J" for his initial - the previous line is F A Jensen and the top of the J goes clockwise (assuming you start with the pen at the top). The Philips initial (starting at the top) goes anti-clockwise. I then found the entry on FindMyPast - or entries, there being three for him. I've not quoted the whole index, just the name and enough to let anyone find him.

There's this (the Ancestry document):
Source Registers Of Deaths At Sea
Archive reference BT 159/5
War -
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
First name(s) G
Last name Phillips
...


And this:
First name(s) G
Last name Phillips
Age 32
...
Source Registers Of Seamen's Deaths, Classified By Cause, 1882-1888
Archive reference BT 157
Box 0007
Page 96
Archive
The National Archives
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials


And this:
First name(s) G
Last name Phillips
...
Source Monthly Lists Of Deaths Of Seamen, 1886-1890
Archive reference BT 156
Box 0001
Page 9
Archive
The National Archives
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials


The latter two are clearly "G" - in fact the last is actually typed copy. So not, I guess, the guy that Miles wants.
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm

Hi Miles - the TNA shows two record entries for your James Phillips. I'm not sure if these records will match those already on Ancestry. I'm still cogitating over the 4 Aug 1881 date on his longer service record. Why is there no ship associated with the date, nor "To" date? Very odd indeed.

Reference: ADM 188/5/40154
Name Phillips, James
Official Number: 40154
Place of Birth: York, Yorkshire
Date of Birth: 22 February 1854
Date: [1873]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Reference: ADM 188/78/83915
Name Phillips, James
Official Number: 83915
Place of Birth: York, Yorkshire
Date of Birth: 22 February 1854
Date: [1873]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby miles_osborne » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:49 pm

Adrian, sadly I fear you are right this is not my Phillips I need. It would also be odd why he was on this ship.

mo, nice find, I have found these records in ancestry and like you I am a little mystified why his last Royal Navy Ship - Shows he joined it but never leaving it. I couldn't quite make out the ship - implacable? Which seemed to be a training ship.

In respect of Burton's Australia Expedition, i'd agree I can't find any evidence that such an expedition occurred in the 1880's I started hunting through the possible expeditions in Australia around this time but it didn't seem clear at all. Just chatting to my mum she said the family history was that he had died around 30 and doing Burton's expedition in Australia. It is very likely the facts have got mixed up. Finding how someone has died abroad seems quite challenging, I am assuming their was no requirement for Louisa to have a death certificate to marry again?

Louisa his wife was a Fruiterer and Florist - 37 Marlborough Street, Devonport, she married Richard Harris Trigger in 1898, I would assume James had died at this point but I will get the marriage certificate to see if she is listed as a widow.
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:11 pm

Miles - I think the Implacable is the ship above the final "From" entry. And yes it was a training ship at that point. I checked for JP on Ancestry's UK, Wills of Royal Naval Seamen Index, 1786-1882 but no luck. You'd think he would have made a will by 1876-1881 - certainly before he decided to sail again, but perhaps not.

If you have a FMP subscription, search the British Royal Navy & Royal Marines Service And Pension Records, 1704-1919 records. TIP: If you search on "James Phillips" and a Year date of 1880 with -/+ 10 years either side, it brings up 0 results. So search with his name only (no date).

You'll most likely be concerned with this series on the first page (without year details):
ADM 29 / 1-32, 34-131 – Admiralty: Royal Navy, Royal Marines, coastguard and related services: Officers’ and Ratings’ Service Records (Series II) 1802-1919 (Note: series ADM 6, ADM 22, and ADM 73 are for records prior to 1869).

Check for the appropriate Year Range in the record transcription, then search the image. Note: It appears the ship name is listed after the surnames, followed by the first name.
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:42 am

Miles - not sure if you're aware the online GRO index includes birth and death entries for a second daughter. It might be worth purchasing the birth cert (or both) to ascertain James' occupation in 1884, and to see who registered the death in 1887. Note: FMP has her burial record (transcribed as "Philips") but it doesn't indicate cause of death or a parent name.

PHILLIPS, MABEL HILDA mmn: TREGILLIS
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in STOKE DAMEREL Volume 05B Page 328

PHILLIPS, MABEL HILDA age 3
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in STOKE DAMEREL Volume 05B Page 213

Also, I wonder if the Devonport Naval Heritage Centre in Plymouth can assist with determining which ship sailed from Stoke Damerel on or around 4 Aug 1881? https://devonportnhc.wordpress.com/
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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby miles_osborne » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:32 am

Mo, thank you for this, I wasn't aware of Mabel so that is some find and will move us forward to at least 1884 and maybe 1887 as well as giving my family an additional relative. I'll get those records. I moved to the Genealogist as my additional subscription from find my past but I have found findmypast just seems to have those extra records which work well with ancestry. I'll renew my subscription to delve in that side.

If anything else occurs please do post and as soon as I unearth anything else from either the records, fmp or from the centre you mention I'll post here

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Re: Ships Name and Master

Postby MoVidger » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Miles - I just sent you a PM. And yes, it'll be interesting to see if Mabel's certs "shed any light on the subject" (as my granny would say).
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