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BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

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BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby SDV » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:42 am

I am reviving an old thread, which failed to generate too many responses or extra information, in the hope of new insights.

I believe that my 4x Great Grandparents were John BIRD and Ann(e) HEAD. I have no idea when John was born, but believe that Ann(e) was born 22 Nov 1773 in Shoreditch, being baptised on 24 Nov 1773 at St Leonard's in Shoreditch. In any case, John BIRD and Ann(e) HEAD were married on 14 Nov 1802 at All Saints in Edmonton.

As far as I can find, John and Ann BIRD had three children: John BIRD (b1807), William BIRD (b1812) and Mary Ann BIRD (b1814). All three were born in Edmonton and baptised at All Saints. On the baptisms of the last two children, John is described as a soldier.

I think John must have died before 1824, as on 05 Sep 1824 there is a marriage between John ROBERTS (widower) and Ann BIRD (widow) at St Andrews in Enfield. The newly married couple appear to have two children: Eliza (1818-1823) and Elizabeth (1821-?), both born in Edmonton and baptised at All Saints.

Ann ROBERTS (née HEAD) died on 01 Feb 1838 in Edmonton and was buried at All Saints.

Mary Ann Bird - who I believe to be my 3x Great Grandmother - married James MARDELL on 07 Jun 1830 at All Saints, Edmonton. Even though she married under the name BIRD, the name she gives on the birth certificates of her children - at least those born after the start of civil registration - is ROBERTS. I am fairly convinced that Mary Ann BIRD and Mary ROBERTS are one and the same person.

James and Mary MARDELL set up home at Eaton Place, Fore Street in Edmonton, the same address as where Ann ROBERTS (née HEAD) died. Interestingly, in the 1841 census they are living with one John ROBERTS (70, not born in Middx) and one Elizabeth ROBERTS (20, b Middx). By 1851, John ROBERTS (75, unmarried, b Beds) is still living with the family, but Elizabeth has moved on.

When I asked for help on this a few years ago, the replies focused mostly on John Bird's military career without much success, rather than some of the following questions.

1. John BIRD
when and where was he born?
when and where did he die?
presumably he died between 1814 (birth of Mary Ann BIRD) and 1818 (birth of Eliza
ROBERTS), certainly before 1824 (Ann BIRD's re-marriage).

2. John ROBERTS
when and where was he born?
when and where did he die?
can't find him after the 1851 census.
who was his first wife?

3. John and William BIRD
what happened to them?
there are possible burials at All Saints: John in 1850 and William in 1873
If these burials are correct, what happened in between their births and deaths.

4. Elizabeth ROBERTS
what happened to her after 1841 census?
did she marry?
when did she die?
SDV
 
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby MoVidger » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:47 pm

Quick question: Have you concluded that Ann Head was born in 1773 based on the age (68) given at the time of her death in 1838? I only ask because she would've been nearly 30 at the time of her first marriage, and aged about 48 when her last child was born. (I do note that a John Head was a marriage witness - possibly father or a brother?)

Also, where did you find the 1821 baptism for Elizabeth Roberts? I don't see it on Ancestry or FMP.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby avaline » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:58 pm

Age is slightly out but there is a John Bird aged 49 & born Edmonton in the 1851 census at No. 9 Eaton(s) Place, along with wife Ann, aged 50 & born Ireland.

The Mandell's are at No. 16, although there are other Mandell's at No 13.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby SDV » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:43 am

Mo - I realise that Ann would be relatively old - but not impossibly so - at the births of her children if she was born in 1773. I based her age on a baptism that I found for an Ann Head at St Leonard's in Shoreditch, according to which she was baptised 24 Nov 1773, the daughter of John and Ann Head. This may or may not be the one who went on to marry John BIRD and John ROBERTS.

The baptisms of both Eliza and Elizabeth - together with Eliza's funeral - are all on Ancestry, but be aware that Roberts is sometimes spelt as ROBARTS.

I am more intrigued by what happened to John ROBERTS, who after all was a relatively old man in 1851. He probably died before the 1861 census and almost certainly before the 1871 census, but his death is nowhere to be found. In my experience, deaths - unlike births and marriages - are nearly always recorded, especially ones after 1837.

Avaline - I think John BIRD dies in Edmonton workhouse in 1850, aged 43. This would be consistent with his known birth in 1807. But you may be right, who knows.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby MoVidger » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:33 pm

I noticed with two of the baptism images for the Bird children, there was a "P" in the right margin. I think it denotes "pauper" or "poor" in parish records. Not sure if it helps with your research, though. I suppose it could mean they just didn't have money for the baptism. Also interesting to note that Ann Bird remained at Fore Street, even after her marriage to John Roberts. One wonders if Mr Roberts simply moved with her in by 1818?

Not sure if this matters at all, but the baptism directly below Mary Ann Bird's is for a William Sydney Smith. He was baptised the same day as Mary Ann. Abode is also Fore Street. Interestingly, his father William Ellis Smith is a soldier, as well.

On FMP, there is an 1818 Pensioners Record for a William Ellis Smith. Born c1781 in St Andrews, Dublin.
From 1801 to 1818, he served with the 12th Regiment. It could mean nothing, or it might provide a clue to what regiment John Bird served with.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby MoVidger » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:24 pm

There is another married soldier (Michael Allum) who resides at Eaton Place, circa 1805-1813. Several of his children's baptism records indicate he was with the "1 Reg, Tower Hamlets Militia". It probably bears no connection to John Bird, but you never know.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby sdup26 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:23 pm

There's a John Bird, born 'in the Parish of Croydon, Surrey' in 1769. He enlisted in the Royal Eastern Regiment of Middlesex Militia, at Edmonton, Middlesex in 1787 aged 18, and was 5 ft 9 ins tall, with brown hair and hazel eyes, by trade a cordwainer. He was medically discharged in 1819, aged 50.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby MoVidger » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Good find, sdup26! In fact, there was 1813/1814 baptism a few pages from Mary Ann Bird. The father belonged to that very same regiment.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby SDV » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:41 pm

This is very encouraging, though I'm not sure how to pursue it.

I can't help but think that the fate of John Roberts should be easier.
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Re: BIRD & ROBERTS of Edmonton

Postby sdup26 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:36 am

Phillimore marriage entry shows John Roberts, widower, married Ann Bird, St Andrews, Enfield, 5/9/1824. It doesn't record Ann as a widow.
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