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1939 register have death certificate but the record is locke

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1939 register have death certificate but the record is locke

Postby londongirl » Sun May 26, 2019 1:45 pm

Hi

This is my first post so here goes!

Eric Frank Endersby was born in 1924, Brentford, Middlesex and died 26 Sep 1941 also Brentford, Middlesex and the residence address shown is that of his parents.

I have a copy of his death certificate but I can't find his record on 1939 census although his parents and elder brother are. There are 2 blacked out entries however. my problem is that there were 9 children at the time, my father being one of them and he died in 2011 and I found his entry on the register as a more recent addition where he was resident in Devon at Royal West Of England Residential School For The Deaf.

I understand that some of the other children may have been evacuated so I can't guess at who the 2 blacked out children could be and although I did send a copy of the death certificate to findmypast who I assume pass it onto National Archives, they can't help without an address.

Any suggestions as to where I can go now? I would have thought that a death in 1941 would have been picked up and routinely added to the opened entries by now.

Has anyone else come across this problem?
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun May 26, 2019 5:17 pm

If I remember rightly, you are supposed to provide a death certificate and (as you imply) specify an address. See https://www.findmypast.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions/answer/what-if-i-notice-an-officially-closed-record-in-the--register-that-i-believe-should-be-open. It seems to me that there's no harm in resubmitting that certificate to FindMyPast but specifying that the entry to be opened is on the Brentford address. If they still say no, at least you'll know he wasn't there.

As for a 1941 death not being opened, well... You're depending on the clerks of 1941 finding the original line and marking it with D for Deceased or whatever they did. It only needs the chaos of war to disrupt the chain of events and the death might be omitted.

And if he had been evacuated, then his original entry will be in some other book. Presumably when he returned to Brentford, another entry was made somewhere - but it wouldn't be in the 1939 Register. I wonder if they would even bother to mark the death on the entry in the original book (so that entry would still be closed) given that he wasn't in their area any more? I get a bit hazy over how many books there were (not just the 1939 Register) and how they handled people who moved. Certainly, during WW2, it was far from being a single, central register.
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby Guy » Mon May 27, 2019 5:41 am

Contact the National Archives and send them a copy of the Death Certificate and a non-refundable fee of £24.35 and they will open the entry for you.
See - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 39Register

Note you do not have to fill in all the boxes on the form, the address boxes are all optional.
Cheers
Guy
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon May 27, 2019 6:27 am

That's interesting.

Just to clarify - and allow anyone to dispute - the FMP and TNA searches appear to do 2 different things.

FMP just look at one closed entry to see if it matches the death certificate.

TNA do a search of *all* the closed entries. Which is presumably why you have to pay.

I have been guilty of not reading the TNA service description because I assumed that it was the same as the FMP one but for non subscribers. Mind you - I am now making another assumption - that the TNA description is correct and that they really can search with no address. Because I am wondering how they do that.... Maybe it's too early in the morning to think it through....

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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby Guy » Mon May 27, 2019 12:00 pm

The National Archives hold the original unredacted books which they can search for the relevant entry. Having found it I believe they contact Findmypast with the reference of the correct person and ask (require) them to unredact the entry.
I expect they also hold a completely unredacted copy of the database they could browse rather than use the books.
Cheers
Guy
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon May 27, 2019 1:32 pm

Seems logical, Guy. Although I understand that TNA don't have the physical books (which remain at Southport - unless things have changed since TNA wrote that guide) since this was a digital only accession. They'll have the unredacted images, which can be used in exactly the same way as you suggest.

Yes, it was too early in the morning when I wrote my previous comment. I was missing the existence of the unredacted database when my head queried TNA's ability to search with no address. That has to exist to be used when FMP run comparisons between the latest death certificate indexes and the still redacted entries in order to open them.

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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby Guy » Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 pm

You could well be correct about the physical books, I get different answers when I ask about this. Sometimes being told they were transferred to the National Archives and sometimes being told they are still retained at Southport, I remember visiting Southport before the 39 was released and being shown the stacks (compact shelves) where it was kept but was not allowed to approach them.
I believe that under the Public Records Act if the 1939 National Register was transferred to Kew the public would have to be allowed access to it as it is over 30 years old unless the Lord Chancellor prescribes otherwise whereas if kept at Southport this would not apply.

Cheers
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby junkers » Mon May 27, 2019 9:18 pm

Before parting with your money, TNA have told me that the death certificate have to match the entry in the 1939 Register exactly and I am sure that neither TNA nor FMP have the original records but are still at Southport. There are actually three versions (FMP, TNA and ancestry). Keeping records for more than 30 years (to be reduced to 20 years) Government departments have to get permission to withhold or closed such records and should not just sit on them.
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby Guy » Tue May 28, 2019 8:53 am

junkers wrote:Before parting with your money, TNA have told me that the death certificate have to match the entry in the 1939 Register exactly and I am sure that neither TNA nor FMP have the original records but are still at Southport. There are actually three versions (FMP, TNA and ancestry). Keeping records for more than 30 years (to be reduced to 20 years) Government departments have to get permission to withhold or closed such records and should not just sit on them.


Interesting they should tell you that as I sent my Aunt Mary's death certificate in to open her 1939 entry and it was opened. She was Born Mary Margaret Guy in 1922 and Died Mary Margaret Docherty in 1966, the 1939 National Register has her birth as 1921 but I had no quibbles when I requested her entry be opened.
It can be seen here if you subscribe to FMP
https://tinyurl.com/y3ng7q2s

Or search for Mary M Guy dob 1921
Ref. 5690H/010 piece/item

Cheers
Guy
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Re: 1939 register have death certificate but the record is l

Postby Panda53 » Fri May 31, 2019 11:51 pm

Hi
I personally haven't attempted to have a record unlocked.
I don't have a FMP subscription but I do have Ancestry.
The Ancestry record suggests three redacted records for those on Schedule 115
Albert
Kathleen
Redacted record possibly a person born before 1926
Derek born 1916
Unsure born 1927
Redacted
Redacted

Then there is the next schedule.

I know this doesn't directly answer your question - sorry.

Regards
A
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