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Brick wall- Patrick Riley

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Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby LJThomas » Fri May 10, 2019 9:57 am

I have been trying to find the Riley side of my family. I am stuck at 1871. I will share what I have so far regarding the Riley's. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
My Gt Gt Grandfather Patrick Riley was listed on the 1911 Census for Rochdale, Lancashire
as being born in Fermanagh, Ireland (1858) 52 years old, stoker @ gas works
1901 B. Ireland, stoker @ gas works
1891 B Ireland, Iron moulder
1881 B Ireland, Labourer @ iron works
Patrick's first marriage was 1885 in Rochdale 28 years old Labourer, Father is John Riley occupation Gardener
Wife died in 1887 also a son named John William died.
2nd marriage was 1888 Rochdale 30 years old Iron Peate Moulder, Father John occupation Gardener.
During his 2nd marriage they had 4 children
John Riley 89 died
Mary Elizabeth 90
Owen 97
Catherine 99
I found a John Riley occupation gardener in 1871 Rochdale Lancashire, born in Crom, Fermanagh Ireland but there is no Patrick Riley. However, there is a Owen and other children all listed as being born in Crom, Fermanagh Ireland. John Riley's wife name is Bridget Riley. When you click on the hints it gives you the 1881 census with John and Bridget with Patrick living there. But John Riley's listed occupation is labourer @ Iron Works. Also, some children with the same names and ages are identical in both the 1871/1881. I'm not sure where to go next. Any advice? Thank you in advance.
LJThomas
 
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby sdup26 » Fri May 10, 2019 4:50 pm

I think you have the right family in 1871 and 1881. Three of the older children (John, Mary Ann, and Owen), have probably moved out to start their own families by 1881, when Patrick b 1858 is listed, but otherwise, the names are the same in both. All the family members were born in Ireland, except youngest daughter Margaret, who was born in Manchester in 1865, as shown in both censuses. Margaret's birth is listed in the GRO index, which shows her mother's maiden name was Dawson. (MQ 1865 Manchester 8d 182). Does this surname for mother Bridget fit with your family?
Father John was listed as a gardener in 1871, and that may may have been his occupation in Ireland. But Rochdale was an industrial area, so it wouldn't be surprising if he found demand for gardeners was low, and had to change tack.
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby LJThomas » Fri May 10, 2019 5:05 pm

Thank you so much for your reply, and also checking and taking the time to look at both census records that I was speaking about. I have tried to find Patrick Riley's Irish BC, but as you can imagine there seems to be a lot of them. The only issue that I can find with that 1871 census is Patrick wasn't on it. But all the names and ages of the other children in 1871/1881 seem to match. Also, Margaret's birth place changed from Crom, Fermanagh, Ireland in 1871 to Manchester in 1881.
I was wondering if in 1881 John Riley was listed as labourer @ iron works on the census record why he was listed as a gardener in Patrick's 1885 Marriage and his 1888 marriage?
I should have mentioned that a witness to Patrick's 2nd marriage was Margaret Riley.
I was always under the impression that they named their children after their parents and grandparents. Patrick didn't have any daughters name Bridget. His first daughter born was Mary Elizabeth and then a Catherine. Catherine being named after Patrick's wife and Catherine's mother was Elizabeth. I assumed that Mary's first name was after his mother, or possibly his first wife that died?
Thanks again for your time and assistance. I appreciate it very much.
LJThomas
 
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby sdup26 » Sat May 11, 2019 10:21 am

Just one point regarding the John Riley and family you were concerned about in 1871 and 1881: In 1871 John Riley, gardener, and his family, were living in Nicholson Yard, off Rope Street, in the Wardleworth area of Rochdale. In 1881, John Riley, labourer in an iron works, and family including Patrick, were all living in 10, Rope Street, in the Wardlesworth area of Rochdale.
I agree with you about Margaret: I apologise for mis-reading the 1871 entry, and thought she was from M/C in both '71 and '81. I now think '81 is a mistake, and that she was born in Ireland. This could be her in 1891, living at Middle Lane, in the Wardlesworth area of Rochdale:
Margaret Riley b 1868 Ireland, Head, single
Ellen Taylor, b 1849 Lancs, widow, boarder
Bridget Riley, b1831 Ireland, widow, monthly nurse
Bessie Riley b 1891 Rochdale (daughter of Margaret)
It's true the Irish often followed 'naming patterns' - 1st son named for father's father, 2nd son for mother's father, 3rd son for father/1st dau for mother's mother, 2nd for father's mother, 3rd for mother - but not always, and if Patrick's wife was English, she may have had her own ideas about naming the children.
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby LJThomas » Sat May 11, 2019 12:11 pm

Thanks for all of your help. I figured there were to many coincidences for that 1871 census not to be Patrick’s family. I did see that 1891 census with Bridget, Margaret and Bessie on it. I believe that John died between 1888-1901 as he wasn’t listed as deceased on Patrick’s 1888 marriage certificate.
I appreciate all the assistance you have given.
LJThomas
 
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby sdup26 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:55 pm

I think John Riley's death is the one registered in the Dec Q 1888, Rochdale 8e 39, aged 59 (1829).
As to why he was described as a gardener on Patrick's marriage certificate, perhaps that's how he always saw himself - it was his trade, or calling, whereas working in the iron foundry was just something he had to do to support his family and preferred not to acknowledge. Only a guess obviously. Perhaps the Margaret Riley who was a witness at Patrick's second marriage was his sister.
Very frustrating though, not to find Patrick in 1871, when he was about 13. I wonder if he was still in Ireland, and came here later than '71 with other family members for some reason?
sdup26
 
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby ianbee » Sat May 11, 2019 7:33 pm

sdup26 wrote:I think John Riley's death is the one registered in the Dec Q 1888, Rochdale 8e 39, aged 59 (1829).

Throw in his burial at Rochdale Cemetery, 13 October 1888
Trade - Gardener
Late Residence - 4 Middle Lane
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1003215
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby LJThomas » Sat May 11, 2019 9:59 pm

That is amazing! I have spent along time trying to figure out my Riley side. I am very grateful for all the assistance.
LJThomas
 
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby MayHam » Sat May 11, 2019 10:59 pm

Not sure if the following is John's wife, Bridget, but they share the same grave number.
bur. 1 Sep 1900, Rochdale, Widow, age 66, of 7 Castle Street, Grave #20787
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1003215

I searched the 1901 census for 7 Castle Street but couldn't find a match.
However, there was a Thomas Riley & family at 23 Castle Street. He was born in Ireland around 1850. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript ... 0022154575
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Re: Brick wall- Patrick Riley

Postby MayHam » Mon May 13, 2019 12:45 am

Also, tried searching for the Irish Civil Birth Record of Margaret Riley but didn't find a good match.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ... search.jsp
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