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GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

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Re: GRO Refund for

Postby AntonyM » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:25 am

AdrianB38 wrote:..... It may be something that's only done in a limited area ...


It certainly can be done - but it is quite tricky, especially for births/deaths. There are multiple entries per page in the old registers & the paper sizes don't match and so it is a multi stage process, difficult to align properly and takes much longer than just writing out a certificate. If the register is at all fragile, they will probably refuse completely, otherwise it is just a question of asking/begging as politely and persistently as you can !

I managed to get a marriage certificate produced from photocopying an original register entry (to show the signatures) recently form a London office, but it took about 3 months of communication before they finally agreed to do it.

Good luck...

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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:27 am

My impression was that it was tricky, so you've actually confirmed that for me.

To be honest, it had never occurred to me to actually ask for a photo copy (on a certified blank) - as far as I was concerned, you get what you are given by the Registrars and any special pleading from me will be confined to questions like, "Can you tell me if there's a cancelled registration on xxxxxx?"

In my experience offices automatically either do or don't do photocopies on certified blanks (delicate registers aside) and I've no idea what Liverpool do - I thought that I'd sent for a certificate from them before, because I remembered their fairly appalling ordering system ("Write this down because you'll need to fill it in later", Huh? Why do you have a computer?) However I can't find any certificate from them so I don't know what I'll get. I know it'll be a couple of quid more than the PDF but every so often I like to support the local Registrars. I will have to wait and see!

Sent from my Moto G6 Play using Who Do You Think You Are? Magazine Forum mobile app
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby Peter van Rooden » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:12 pm

Hello, I`d like to comment. I`m a family member of mrs. Ivy Mannings husband, mister Mees (Moss) Kielema. And I can tell you tha Mees Kielema was indeed a sailor. He is known for an interesting walk of life (born in Holland, emigrated to the USA, expelled from the USA and emigrated to the UK, where he died in 1971 if I`m correct). As far as I know he married a woman called Ivy Manning and was father to at least one daughter who was also called Ivy and married a certain mr. Brooks. That`s all I know. If anyone knows more about this family in the UK I`d appreciate. BTW I also have an early photo of mr. Kielema which was made around 1908. He was born in 1894
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby Peter van Rooden » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:13 pm

Hello, I`d like to comment. I`m a family member of mrs. Ivy Mannings husband, mister Mees (Moss) Kielema. And I can tell you tha Mees Kielema was indeed a sailor. He is known for an interesting walk of life (born in Holland, emigrated to the USA, expelled from the USA and emigrated to the UK, where he died in 1971 if I`m correct). As far as I know he married a woman called Ivy Manning and was father to at least one daughter who was also called Ivy and married a certain mr. Brooks. That`s all I know. If anyone knows more about this family in the UK I`d appreciate. BTW I also have an early photo of mr. Kielema which was made around 1908. He was born in 1894
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:42 pm

Peter - great to hear from you.

I'm afraid that I can't add much more to the story of Ivy and Mees (apologies if I use the wrong spelling at any point - I'm just using what we have in our records). What I have is basically in this thread and the other one I referred to on http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/search.php?t=17539

My relative is Ezra Manning, who married Edith Roya in 1913, who claimed to be a widow, but who's history is so peculiar that I got side-tracked into investigating her. I thought that I had found that Ezra and Edith had a daughter, Ivy Manning, in 1918. Edith died 17 February 1947 and her death certificate showed that, in fact, Ivy (then Ivy Kielema) was her adopted daughter (Edith and Ivy were living then at 42 Brook Road, Bootle).

I had gone no further with Ivy, other than I'd found the index for her first marriage
Name: Ivy D Manning
Registration Date: 1940
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Moes Kielema
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 291

And this, which I had assumed was a second marriage for her:
Name: Ivy D Kielema
Registration Date: 1960
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Philip Brooks
Volume Number: 10d
Page Number: 844


Your suggestion of this being a daughter of the same name, and not Ivy, the daughter of Edith and Ezra, is not one that had occurred to me. I had looked for children born to Ivy and Mees and not found any. But if they were born outside the UK, I might not be able to pick them up.

The only other thing I can add is that it looks like Mees naturalised as a UK citizen in Bootle in 1961. This comes from the National Archive's Discovery Catalogue:
Reference: HO 334/840/64627
Description: Naturalisation Certificate: Mees Kielema. From the Netherlands. Resident in Bootle, Lancashire. Certificate BNA64627 issued 9 January 1961.
Date: 1961 Jan 9

I haven't seen the original, only this index entry.
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:55 pm

OK - I have to add to my previous reply - there is a birth of a Kielma child, whose mother's maiden name is Manning, in 1953. I cannot give further details as they are presumably alive, so privacy applies. The problem was that it's a different spelling that I didn't pick up. The name isn't Ivy but it would seem odd if they, born in 1953 after their parents' marriage in 1940, were the only child.
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby ianbee » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:52 am

Is the child also indexed as Totton? Mother's maiden surname Manning. Two more later.
Death of Jane Totton, 0, same quarter.
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:08 pm

ianbee wrote:Is the child also indexed as Totton? Mother's maiden surname Manning. Two more later.
Death of Jane Totton, 0, same quarter.

Oh ####.... the double indexing of the birth has to be the same child, because there are 6 entries on that page in FreeBMD, not the usual 5, and Jane is the only repeated given name.

What does 3 surnames (inc. MMN) even mean? Is it two unmarried parents (hence indexed twice under Totton, the father's name, and Kielma, her current name) but the mother has a maiden name of Manning because she is / was married - just not to the father....???

It's turtles all the way down again... :? :? :?
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby ianbee » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:08 pm

Hi Adrian
I think that is the likeliest explanation, with Mr Totton being present to sign the register.
In fact you have identified a Mr Totton previously. Remember the burial of Edith, the grave owner being her daughter, and that other burial in it...
your post here
topic17539-50.html#p64593

But, as you mentioned, John Totton's death was registered after the Brooks- Kielema marriage, although in the same year.
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Re: GRO Refund for "an inconsistency in the indexes"

Postby ianbee » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:13 pm

Revisiting those Bootle Cemetery microfilms :)
This will interest Peter
Burial of Michael or Mees Kielma, 15 Dec 1971 (two images)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1910606

The burial of Jane Totton, 7 Feb 1953, is in the indexes to burials
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1910606

But where is that burial register on FamilySearch? There seems to be a gap!
The grave ref is 454 CE7, although in the register of graves for CE 7 Jane is in 453 (a public grave)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1910606

Another relative from the Netherlands may have been inquiring for information in the Liverpool Echo of
6 December 1980.
Last edited by ianbee on Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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