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George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

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George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Robbie J N » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:45 pm

Hello, I have been stuck for several years trying to find the marriage record for George Oliver, born approx 1806 in Lyndhurst (according to the 1871 census, or somewhere beginning with 'S' on the 1851 census), Hampshire, occupation gardener, and Frances Ann Anning, born 27th March 1815 in Shrewton, Wiltshire.
Frances was also known as Fanny, and her parents were James and Elizabeth, as her Christening record is on Ancestry.
George and Frances had children from at least February 1840 onwards, probably earlier, so were probably married in the mid to late 1830s. Their first few children were all born in London/Middlesex/Surrey and that is also where they lived in the 1841 and 1851 census.
This marriage record would give details of George's father, which would help me track down his origins more accurately.
I am not sure when George died exactly, he was alive in the 1871 census, but Frances died in Q2 1879 in Southwark.
Any help finding this marriage record would be helpful, especially if it is after 1st July 1837, then I can order a copy from the GRO.

Thanks for any help you can provide.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby MoVidger » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:22 pm

Hi Robbie, if you look closely at the 1841 census, Frances is listed as “Fanny Anning” (age 26) along with two young sons William Anning (age 3) and Henry Anning (age 1). All three listed as “not born in county”. So if George and Frances/Fanny ever married, it wasn’t prior to 1841.

Also, their son George Oliver (age 15 months) is listed as “not born in county” either, although that could be an error by the census taker.

Ancestry have mis-transcribed Fanny’s name in the 1841 census.

Name: Fanny Runing [Fanny Anning]
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Gender: Female
Civil Parish: Millbrook
Hundred: Mainsbridge (Lower Half)
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Registration district: South Stoneham
Sub-registration district: Millbrook
Piece: 402
Book: 16
Folio: 29
Page Number: 14
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Robbie J N » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:07 pm

I think the 1841 census is all mixed up as it lists George's wife as Elizabeth Oliver, when in fact she was Elizabeth Anning, his mother-in-law. It then lists Frances Anning, rather than Frances Oliver, so the surnames of the children of Frances are also mixed up, called Anning when they should be Oliver. Comparing it to the 1851 census, you can see where some, if not all, of the mistakes were made in the 1841 census.
Plus the 1841 census was in Hampshire, and therefore only George Oliver would be correctly listed as born in that county. I think Elizabeth, Frances' mother, was born in Somerset, according to the 1851 census. Although the 1851 census does say that George William Oliver was born in Hampshire like his father.

I put this in a post on another thread:

Birth dates from GRO & Christening records:
George William Oliver - 1840 Q1 South Stoneham Union (22nd February 1840),
Thomas Henry Oliver - 1842 Q1 St Luke Middlesex (13th February 1842),
Henry James Oliver - 1844 Q3 St Luke Middlesex,
Elizabeth Mary Oliver - 1846 Q3 Marylebone (5th July 1846),
Maria Oliver - 1848 Q4 Gravesend & Milton,
William Oliver - (25th March 1850),
Maria Oliver - 1851 Q2 Lambeth,
Frederick Richard Oliver - 1854 Q3 Camberwell,
Robert James Oliver - 1857 Q1 Camberwell.

I think South Stoneham is just north of Southampton, in Hampshire. The rest are all London/Middlesex/Surrey, except for Gravesend & Milton, which is in Kent. (Maria born 1848, is the name I am least sure about. She died in 1848, before the other Maria was born in 1851.)

So I should apologise for saying the 1841 census was for London/Middlesex/Surrey, when it was actually Hampshire, and only the 1851 and 1871 census was for London/Middlesex/Surrey. Sorry about that mistake.

George and Frances could have been married in Hampshire, Wiltshire, London, Middlesex, Surrey or somewhere else.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby MoVidger » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:54 pm

Interesting that both Anning boys (William and Henry) aren't in the 1851 census with the Oliver family. And it's a struggle to locate birth or death records for them, under Oliver or Anning, given that the family lived in Shirley, Hampshire then Lambeth, Surrey by 1851.
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby MoVidger » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:03 am

In case it helps with your search for George Oliver's birth: his birthplace, according to the 1851 census, is Stoney Cross, Hampshire. It's located just a few miles northwest of Lyndhurst (in the New Forest National Park). Stoney Cross was/is in the parish of Minstead.

Have only found one Oliver family baptising their children in Lyndhurst circa 1810-1817, but a George isn't included. Parents are William & Mary Oliver.
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Mick Loney » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:21 am

May I remind people that the 1841 census does not show relationships. You are making assumptions, which can be very dangerous!
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby ianbee » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:01 am

Is this him in Newington in the 1881 census index as Geo Olives, 75, a Gardener? Piece 553 folio 76 page 47
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-CPLW
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Robbie J N » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:41 am

Replying to Mick Loney.
Quite right in that no family links are shown in the census. Comparing the names between the 1841 and 1851 census, ages roughly match, considering they are generally rounded off to the nearest 5 or 10 years quite often on the 1841 census. It is more about mixing up Frances and her mother Elizabeth’s surnames, and the 2 Anning/Oliver boys, which seems to indicate that Elizabeth was married to George, given her age on the census of 50 and having a child just over a year old, again not specifically stated but implied, which seems unlikely, plus given that it is known that Frances had her mother still living with them in the 1851 census.
These things would all indicate it is the same family.
But, getting back to the marriage record, which would still seem to be in the 1830s, given Frances’s birth of 1815, and their son’s birth in 1840, not including any older children.
Thanks again for the input.
Robbie J N
 
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Mick Loney » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:04 pm

Robbie J N wrote:Replying to Mick Loney.
considering they are generally rounded off to the nearest 5 or 10 years quite often on the 1841 census.


Sorry to be picky, but the ages should always be rounded down, (this is different to being rounded to the nearest), except of course for children under 16, when their actual age should be shown

Some enumerators forgot this rule, so on occasion, you’ll see correct age. :D
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Re: George Oliver & Frances Anning - Marriage 1830s?

Postby Robbie J N » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:17 pm

I did not know that. In my experience, which is limited to my own (possible) relatives' records, the ages have been both too old and too young, so I did not know they were only supposed to be rounded down. (Probably due to either incorrect information given or recorded.)


Quick addition:
I just remembered that I read that they were often rounded up, as well as down, for those over 15.
Source - ‘Tracing Your Ancestors Using The Census’, page 44.
I knew I was not just making an assumption, dangerous or otherwise!
They were supposed to be rounded down, but were often simply rounded off to the nearest 5 years.
So we were both right, sort of.
Last edited by Robbie J N on Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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