Moderator Control Panel ]

Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby janemeridy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:56 pm

I live in New Zealand & I have been researching my maternal French gg grandfather, Lawrence BERTRAND since 2009.
I have ascertained that he lived in London 1833-1861. Family anecdote suggests that he was b. Paris abt 1792, but I have not been able to find any definitive info to support this or who his parents were.
He appears to have worked approx. 1830-1840 at the French Embassy, London as a ‘huissier’. This role suggests he was a doorman/butler? We have copies of what appear to be, 2 reference letters from the French ambassadors of the period, Talleyrand & Sebastiani.
Subsequently he is listed in UK Census returns (1841,1851,1861) as a clerk, interpreter, & lodging housekeeper. I have found him in the London 'Court for Relief of Insolvent Debtors' in 1848.
Lawrence m.1833 Sarah Tratt HUNT. I have accumulated plenty of info re his 5 children. 3 of their children died: Lawrence George b.1835 d.1839; Charles Thomas b.1837 d.1855; Sarah Emily b. 1838 d.1848.
Their son, George Frederick b.1840 was my great grandfather. He came to New Zealand in 1856 & lived with his Mother’s sister, Rebecca EVERETT & her husband, Charles in Taranaki, NZ. The youngest child, John Frederick b.1842 ’disappears’ after the 1861 UK Census, when he is living with his parents in London, working as a Stationery Traveller. I have found some references to a Frederick BERTRAND, a gold miner, from various sources in NZ & Australia, in the correct time frame but nothing definitive enough to say it’s our John Frederick BERTRAND.
I have located 2 of Lawrence’s siblings, Mary BERTRAND & George BERTRAND. It appears that both these siblings never married & were living in London at their deaths in 1855 & 1858. I have a copy of Mary’s will where she leaves money to Lawrence’s 2 remaining children, George Frederick & John Frederick BERTRAND. Lawrence’s brother, George BERTRAND died intestate & his brother, Lawrence is listed as next of kin. His occupation was Dressing Case Maker.
Lawrence came to NZ after his wife d.1865 in Brighton, Sussex, England.
Lawrence d.1871 New Plymouth, Taranaki, NZ which is where his son, George Frederick BERTRAND lived.
But I have been unable to find Lawrence's origins, i.e. where he was born, parents' names & any other siblings. My NZ cousin & I have researched many BERTRAND families in London, during the relevant time period, but have not found any link/connection to our ancestor.
A nephew visited the Archives Diplomatique at La Corneuve, Paris but he was unable to find any info about Lawrence. One possibility is that the family emigrated to UK in the late 1700s as French emigres from the Revolution but I have found no evidence to support this. We realise that if they did come from France they may have anglizised their christian names, e.g Lawrence/Laurent.
Another family anecdote is that our BERTRAND family were related to a well known French BERTRAND family who had a Fencing school in London established in the mid 1800s, ‘Salle Bertrand’. I have researched this family extensively but have not found any info to connect them to our BERTRAND family.
In 2017 I visited National Archives in London & the UK Genealogy Society. I was able to confirm Lawrence’s London Debtor Court appearances. I also looked, unsucessfully, at St Anne’s Church in Soho BDM records as the 1851 UK Census record of Lawrence’s birth place appears to be mistranscribed & could be ‘St Anne’s Soho’. I also contacted a London researcher before my visit but he didn’t provide any useful info.
I would really appreciate it if anyone could help with advice for tracing this interesting ancestor's origins. It is certainly my largest brick wall after 10 years of research!
janemeridy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:53 am

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby avaline » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:13 am

The only bits I can add - although you may well already have them - are that George & Mary are together in 1851 as Burtrand living at 10 Howland Street: HO107, Piece 1494, Folio 351, Page 50

George Burtrand 63, Unmarried, Retired Tradesman born St James, Middlesex
Mary Burtrand 61 Unmarried, Annuitant, born St James, Middlesex

Also the report about the Court for Relief of Insolvent Debtors says Lawrence lost his job at the Embassy because of the Revolution, so it seems he must have been working there until 1848. He is also described as a Chamberlain at the Embassy.
avaline
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:47 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby sdup26 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:59 pm

There doesn't seem to be any firm evidence that Lawrence was born in France. The 1841 census has an option for someone to be recorded as 'born in Foreign Parts' but Lawrence is simply noted as being 'not born in county.' In 1851 and 1861, he gives his place of birth as Middlesex.
sdup26
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby ianbee » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:24 pm

Anyone got access to findmypast?
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Warwick Street, Soho (Bavarian Chapel)
Georgium Bartrand 1787, father Georgius
Laurentium Bertrand 1792, father Georgii
Carolettam Bertrand 1796, father Georgii

Free index also has Anne Louisa Bertrand 1794 with no indication of father (if there was one)

Westminster Burials includes
Burial of a George Bertrand, St Anne Soho, 1817, age 52
and indexed on FamilySearch, buried 19 March
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHRW-YX7

Ann Burtrand buried there in 1798
Is she also indexed as Buntrand, age 37?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/1903/1:1:KCZ2-GGF

Is this connected??
1791
Insured: George Bertrand, 13 Great Windmill Street, breeches maker
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 1537f8d6bf
ianbee
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby MoVidger » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:23 am

Several FMP newspaper mentions for a George Bertrand:

Globe, 8 Aug 1825: "Partnerships Dissolved"
George Bertrand and Gabriel Bouveret, of the Palais Royal, Paris, cutlers.

Morning Chronicle, 27 Aug 1810: "Bankrupts"
George Bertrand of Princes Street, Soho, tailor...

Morning Advertiser, 17 Oct 1810
Lease, Furniture, Shop Fixtures, a few Lots...and Effects, No. 3 Princes Street, Soho.
Mr George Bertrand, Breeches Maker, Bankrupt.

For the England Roman Catholic parish baptisms which Ian found, the mother's name for each is Anna/Anne Ryan. FMP also have the baptism images.
MoVidger
 
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby MayHam » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:22 am

1802 & 1806 George Bertrand, Sidneys Street, St. Anne, Soho
https://www.londonlives.org/search.jsp? ... submit.y=0

According to George's burial information submitted by IanBee, George was born about 1765.
FMP has the baptism of a George Bertrand, son of Rene & Elizabeth, in 1766 in St. Paul Covent Garden.
It says Elizabeth is his wife but I could only find a marriage record dated 1768 at St. Mary Lambeth.
The FMP marriage license says Rene & Elizabeth (Laporte) were both aged 21 (i.e. born about 1747).

Ancestry.com lists a Rene Julien Bertrand baptised in 1748 in Cotes-d'Armor, Upper Brittany, France.
MayHam
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:28 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby Artognou » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:42 pm

I have full access to FMP, I'm only too happy to have a look for anything :)
Artognou
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby janemeridy » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:02 pm

What a thrill it was to get all your responses to my post re my gg grandfather, Lawrence BERTRAND!
In reply...
avaline: Yes I have the 1851 UK Census record for Mary & George BURTRAND.
ianbee: I have a FMP membership so will follow up on your post re Bavarian Chapel baptisms in Warwick St. This is interesting, but maybe irrelevant... the Salle Bertrand Fencing School was at 10 Warwick St, Golden Sq.
The first name, George(s) appears so often in this family line that it has to be relevant to a parent or grandparent of Lawrence. My grandfather & g grandfather were George Frederick BERTRAND & George senior's younger brother, was John Frederick BERTRAND. So maybe Frederick is also from an earlier generation? So far I haven't been able to find any Fredericks.
The George BERTRAND, Breeches Maker, bur. St Anne, Soho 1817 is one I have followed up. He also features in a number of Land Tax records 1802-1812 & the Westminster Poll Books, Fleet St Debtors Prison record.
There is a marriage record for a George BARTRAND & Ann RINE, 25 Oct 1785, Kensington (Source: FMP, Boyd's Marr. Indexes)
I have also found the burial you mention for: Ann BERTRAND bur. 30 Mar 1798 St Anne Soho, from Sidney's Alley.
Also one for Charlotte BERTRAND bur. 4 Jan 1798 St Anne, Soho, from Sidneys Alley, aged 2yrs.
(Source: FMP Westminster Burials)

MayHam: I have also wondered whether Rene & Elizabeth (nee LAPORTE) BERTRAND could be George Snr's parents. Their 2 children's names & years of birth fit, George (b. 1766) & Mary (b.1768).
We do have a family photo of a small painting of a young woman originally on a snuff box. I sent the photo to Jayne Shrimpton for dating. She dates it 1798-1808. According to family, written on the back was the name, Sarah LAPORTE. Unfortunately the original painting seems to have gone missing.
Many thanks for your post replies & I would really appreciate any further info you're able to 'dig up'.
janemeridy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:53 am

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby Chruistine Brennan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:11 pm

Parish records for Cotes du Nord/Cotes d'Armor are on line
Also it's worth signing up to the French Genealogy Blog and Facebook page French Genealogy from Afar, both by Anne Morddel
Chruistine Brennan
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:58 pm

Re: Lawrence BERTRAND, London 1800s

Postby janemeridy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:42 am

I have followed up on the Bavarian Chapel, Soho baptisms. But I can't find a baptism for Lawrence's (Laurentium) sister, Mary (Maria?) BERTRAND b. abt 1780 per her death cert. & burial record. I realise that ages given on these are not always accurate but even after searching either side of 1780 I can't find anything likely. Nothing is coming up on FMP, Ancestry or Family Search for St Anne's church, Soho either. If she was b. abt 1780 that was 5 years before George & Anne BERTRAND m. 1785. So I searched using her (likely) mother's maiden name, RINE/RYAN but no luck. Any suggestions?
I think George & Anne's daughter, Carolettam, b.1796 maybe the Charlotte BERTRAND bur. 1798 St Anne's, Soho. She died from smallpox at 2yrs.
I've found the burial record for Ann BURTRAND 30 Mar 1798 @ 37 yrs, St Anne’s, Soho with cause of death looking like ‘child bed’… a bit difficult to read. (St Anne’s Soho Burial Records FMP).
Another query…. Why are some of this family’s records associated with a Bavarian RC Chapel & some at an Anglican church, St Anne’s, Soho?
So, still plenty of 'loose ends' to research but your info has given me a new burst of energy to do that!
janemeridy
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:53 am

Next

Return to General research queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests