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Several Post-1837 Problems

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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:14 pm

Yes, you found the correct marriage record. The Ancestry member family tree I mentioned actually has an image of the GRO certificate:

14 August 1837 - Registration District: West Bromwich - Parish of Handsworth
William Edwards, of full age, bachelor, Occupation: German Silver Worker
Father's name and occupation: Samuel Edwards, gardener
Mary Clarence, minor, spinster
Father's name and occupation: James Clarence, bricklayer

Residence at time of marriage: Handsworth (for both)
Bride and groom signed with their mark.
Witnesses: John Renshaw, Maria Renshaw

NOTE: Mary Clarence's parents may have been from Ireland.
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:36 pm

Annie Jane's baptism on Ancestry. Father's occupation: Iron Bedstead Maker

Name: Ann Edwards
Age: 0
Birth Date: 22 Nov 1845
Baptism Date: 15 Dec 1845
Baptism Place: Birmingham, St Philip, Warwickshire, England
Father: William Edwards
Mother: Mary Edwards
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:08 pm

Thanks. I did look at some of the trees, but several did not have the 'home' person as a descendant of William Edwards and Mary Clarence. Also, when I try and look at the marriage certificate, I can only see the left half of it. Is it fully visible for you? Plus, none of the trees have any info on Ann Edwards, and her marriage to Charles Parsons, besides a year of birth and her Christening record.

Quick addition:
I just checked again, and the marriage record is in 2 halves and most people who copied it to their tree didn't bother with the right hand half. Also, most copied it to Mary Clarence, but the original, in both parts, was attached to William Edwards.

Those trees on Ancestry would be a lot easier to navigate if you were able to enter 2 names, and it could show the link between them. I couldn't see the relationship between the 'home' person and the Edwards/Clarence family on the 'Kerr' tree, until I clicked on the daughter-in-law. So the 2 granddaughters of the 'home' person are the people descended from the Edwards/Clarence line. (That was complicated!)
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:03 pm

#5 - As you surmise, the Mountford and Nunn families had some sort of connection, based on the Bible dedication, and curious census record appearances of family members.

If it were me, I would drill down deeper on Juliana Joseph and her father Jacob. I can't seem to find anything on them yet. Perhaps they had a surname change.

Also, dig deeper on Eleanor Greaves and her father John Linley Greaves (1773-1832). Did you know that his real surname was "Chesmer"? He changed his name to "Greaves" after he fell out with his father. John Linley Chesmer (later Greaves) had also attended Oxford in the 18th-century.
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby Robbie J N » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:42 pm

#5:
The only other record I could find for a possible Jacob Joseph, was his death in the 1830s, based on a subsequent will record, which said he was a ‘pencutter’ by profession, and that his widow was called Sarah. Whether this is the right Jacob, I can’t tell. Juliana was born in 1825, approx, and by the time of her marriage in 1845, her father had died. That was all I could find on the Joseph family. Ancestry was used for those sources.

Do any CofE baptism records list the names of the God-parents, as I know a lot of the Catholic ones do, but none of the CofE ones that I have seen bother to mention them? Maybe the names of Juliana’s siblings would have been mentioned as God-parents on her children’s records, but the records I’ve seen for RJMN Sr and Florence, don’t mention God-parents.

One more thing I should add - John Peter Nunn did get married, but it was several years after Eleanor Mountfort died, so his wife’s relationship with the Mountforts is probably not the reason he was called Eleanor’s ‘brother’ in the bible.
Goodman Humphreys Nunn died at about the age of 2. Joshua Henry Nunn married Emma Igdalia Dawson in Somerset before moving to London. He had 3 children in total, but that line is now extinct, as he had only a single grandchild who died without children.
Joshua was in the HAC (Honourable Artillery Company), as a ‘weekend warrior’ (TA or whatever it was called back then), so I don’t know if the Greaves or Mountforts had any connnection with that. But, his commissioning documents for the rank of Ensign, Lieutenant and Captain were from the 1860s, so a bit late as Eleanor died in 1861.
Last edited by Robbie J N on Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:49 pm

Robbie - for interesting info on how Eleanor/Ellen (Chesmer) Greaves met Thomas Mountford in Birmingham, go to this site: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mountfort-12 Prior to his marriage to Ellen Greaves, Thomas was married to Susanna Wale Woolfield.

This site also has helpful info on her father John Linley Chesmer (later Greaves).

In the London Gazette (9 July 1867), it appears that Robert Reece Nunn was having debt issues and was going to be served a warrant. His 1821 baptism indicates his name was Rees Robert Nunn.
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:18 pm

On Ancestry, there's this 1832 death record for a Jacob Joseph. It would make him a bit old to be Juliana's father. However, his abode is listed as Suffolk Street, St Pancras. Isn't that where Juliana married and lived until her death in 1860? Might be a connection there.

Name: Jacob Joseph
Age: 65
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1767
Death Date: 24 May 1832
Burial Date: 24 May 1832
Burial Place: Saint Giles In The Fields, Camden, England
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby Robbie J N » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:50 am

#5:
I had not seen the Gazette article before, or heard of any money problems.

There are a few things that don’t add up about Robert Reece’s financial sitiuation. He spent the last few years of his life in an asylum in Norwood, death registered in Uxbridge in 1874. He was listed as a ‘pauper’ rather than a private patient, yet his 2nd wife was listed on census data as living on private means. So Martha, wife number 2, formerly Mrs Stocker, nee Barling, let her husband stay in an asylum as a pauper while she was rich enough to live off other funds. Robert’s brother Joshua seemed to be quite rich, with a lengthy property portfolio, and Joshua’s 2 sons, Robert Henry and Arthur Wellesley, seemed to be quite well-off too. I would have thought big brother Joshua could have helped out, as the family seemed quite close. My great-aunts used to know their ‘Aunt Emma’, Joshua’s daughter, quite well. (She was not their actual aunt, but their grandfather’s 1st cousin.)

There is only one more possible family member whose name I know of that existed before 1849, when RJMN Sr was born. He was simply called ‘Uncle Fisher’, as Robert Reece painted a portrait of him in the late 1830s, while still just a teenager. I don’t know if Fisher was his first name or surname, or whether he was an actual uncle, by blood or marriage, or just a friend of the parents.

So far, in the various Ancestry trees I have looked at with the Mountfort family in them, I have seen no close relatives of theirs with surnames Nunn, Humphreys, Joseph, Masters or Fisher. These are all I have to work with at the moment.

The Jacob Joseph record - Does it mention a wife Sarah, or is it a different Jacob to the pencutter?
Also, my grandmother had a 1st cousin who was still having children in his 60s, though he was on wife number 2 by then. (Eddie Nuttgens, stained glass window artist, born 1892, 13th child born 1953.)
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby MoVidger » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:18 am

A bankruptcy notice from the London Gazette, date 1815 (month/day unknown):

"Jacob Joseph, of the city of Bristol, Pen Manufacturer..." (the blurb is rather faded).

Wasn't John Peter Nunn originally from Bristol? If the Jacob above is Juliana's father, then it might explain how she may have known the Nunn brothers. Total guess work, though.
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Re: Several Post-1837 Problems

Postby Robbie J N » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:46 am

I am trying to find my reference to Jacob as a ‘pencutter’, but I can’t seem to find it at the moment. (Perhaps it is best to ignore that possibility at the moment, sorry.) But the reference to a wife Sarah was for a Jacob Joseph in St Anne, Middlesex, probate on 27th February 1836, on Ancestry. (Juliana is listed on the 1851 census as being born in St Anne, Middlesex, as is her cousin Eliza.)

Both Robert Reece Nunn and Juliana Joseph had addresses in Cardington Street, according to their church marriage record.
Is the Gazette article on page 46 of 62 on Ancestry?
Robert was in the Hanwell asylum from 18th November 1867 until he died on 2nd January 1874.

John Peter was Christened in Bristol 1812, but grew up in Walcot, Somerset, I think, as that’s where his 3 younger brothers were all Christened, starting in 1815 with Joshua Henry, and where his parents and Joshua were listed on the 1841 census, plus where his father John died in 1849. He is definitely the brother of the other 3 because Joshua’s son, Robert Henry Nunn, is listed as nephew and executor on John Peter Nunn’s probate record. Also, JPN was one of the witnesses at his niece Florence’s marriage to Henry Carter in 1873. For some strange reason, even though JPN died in Birmingham, his body was buried in London. There is a family plot at Highgate Cemetery, in London, but you need special permission to access it, and when we tried, about 15 years or so ago, we could not get access. There might be more clues there, but access was denied.
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