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My CLIMANCE brick wall

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My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby paulcliman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:36 pm

Francis Thomas.jpg
Francis Thomas.jpg (447.58 KiB) Viewed 1077 times
My first post as a newbie !
I have been working on a family tree, tracing back my name of Climance.
It’s been really interesting and I discover they were for some generations millers at mills which no longer exist in St. Albans, Hertfordshire.
However, am I doing the right thing because it appears that my great-grandfather was NOT my true one.
In 1895 my great-grandmother (Annie Dyer b. 1870-ish in, I think, Moreton-in-Marsh) married Alfred Climance in Watford.
However, at the age of 17, Annie had a child, Francis Thomas, by a complete mystery man called Thomas Hopkin(s).
I can find nothing of the birth and life of Annie Dyer up to her marriage and EVEN less about Thomas Hopkin(s). According to family gossip, he ranged from Ostler to Horse Thief to ‘Thoroughly bad lot!”
I have no idea of his age, where he was from, what actually he did (if anything !)
All info on these two people would be much appreciated.
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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby sdup26 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:46 pm

Welcome to the forum.
Alfred and Annie Climance were in Bedfordshire in 1911. The census return shows they'd been married for 15 years, with no children of the marriage.
Also according to the 1911 census, Alfred was born in Watford, and Annie says she was born in Moreton, Gloucestershire. There's an Annie Dyer on the 1881 census for Moreton, with father Frank, b1851, a blacksmith, mother Caroline b1850, sisters Edith 1874 and Emily 1878, and brother John 1880. Also living with the family is Thomas Dyer, lodger/widower, born 1819, a platelayer from Todenham, Glocs. Frank's father?
Francis Thomas' birth certificate gives the impression his parents were married (Annie is referred to as Hopkins, formerly Dyer), but I can't find a marriage. Will now have a look for Thomas.
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My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby brunes08 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:14 pm

On the 1891 census, Francis has been transcribed as Francis F on Ancestry and Family Search but on the original is Francis T. He is aged 4 years bn Middlesex. His parents are Annie Hopkins aged 23 bn Moreton-in-the-Marsh and Tom Hopkins aged 30 bn (looks like) Chidington, both places in Gloucestershire. They are living in the West Drayton area of the Uxbridge District. I cannot find a marriage though.

Edit. I did find a Thomas Francis Hopkins baptised 18 April 1858 Berkeley, Gloucestershire. Mother is named as Eliza but no father mentioned. His forenames did seem to be a bit of a coincidence.

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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby sdup26 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:26 am

Francis is still living with Annie, this time with her husband Alfred, in 1901:
9, Bassett Road, Leighton Buzzard, Beds
Alfred Clemence, b 1875 Watford, bricklayer's labourer
Annie Clemence, wife, b 1870 Moreton
Frank Hopkins, b 1887 Uxbridge, step-son, errand boy for grocer
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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby paulcliman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:04 pm

Bonjour,
Thank you for your rapid help; this is much appreciated and gives me hope and something more real to search for.
Cordialement
Paul Climance
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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby sdup26 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Frustratingly, I can't find a likely candidate to be your Thomas Hopkins after 1891. But an equally frustrating entry is this one from the 1911 census: is it Francis Hopkins using his step-father's surname?
63 London Road, Marlborough, Wilts
FT Climance, 24 (b1887) Uxbridge, Pastry cook/confectioner.
BM (no surname) aged 28 (b1883) Luton, Beds.
FT says they've been married for 'under a year.'
Checked GRO births in case this couple had a baby c1911. In 1911, (SQ Marlborough 5a 164) there's the birth of a Rex Francis Climance, mother's maiden name Brewer. 'BM' was born in Luton, where there's a birth entry for a Beatrice Mary Brewer, MarQ 1883 Luton 3b 468a.
Whoever they are, I haven't found a marriage for them.
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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby brunes08 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:19 pm

For what it is worth, my 2xgt grandfather went through life using his birth surname or his step-father’s surname on different occasions. So a possibility.


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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby sdup26 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:03 pm

I agree - it could well be a case of 'switched surnames.' Just a shame the census taker didn't query the way 'FT' filled in the 1911 census form; year and place of birth are right for Francis Thomas, so if only the householder had been told to enter his full names!
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Re: My CLIMANCE brick wall

Postby sdup26 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:24 pm

Thomas Hopkins is still proving very elusive. I thought it might be significant that he's 'Tom' not Thomas, on Francis Thomas' birth certificate, and 'Tom' in 1891 when living with Annie and FT. Unfortunately, it hasn't helped to find him before 1887 or after 1891!

A 'coincidence' regarding names, is that in Poplar in 1886, the year before Francis Thomas was born, there's a marriage between an Annie Dyer and a William John Hopkins.
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