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Not able to find on 1841 census

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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:25 am

Ah, there are other exam records of Elizabeth and the Sainsburys in that Chelsea examination book. Mary Ann's testimony follows on from a brief report on Elizabeth on the previous page, she had an 8 month old daughter Mary Ann!
Just as well it is online, as it is marked unfit for consultation!

Added
Examination of William Sainsbury confirms the 1841 Newington marriage.
Also includes a letter with a copy of a 1819 examination of William at St George Hanover Square

If you have access to ancestry.co.uk, does this link work? Elizabeth, page 174, then William is on page 175, about 4 images in all with letter.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/ ... 7960-00173

The Hanover Square removal order/exam was mentioned in Harriet's Pancras exam, which I part attached.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/ ... 4817-00436
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 pm

windowframe wrote:I did find a long time ago, a piece in the Old Baileys central criminal court about a William Sainsbury, he worked for a tallow chandler, comes under reference No.t18391216-325 dated 16 Dec,1839.
I feel that maybe Virginia's father, but again not able to connect him with her.

Hi again
That is certainly very interesting, isn't it.
The age given for him is a bit out, but there must be some connection of your William to tallow chandlering (or whatever you call it!), as it is his occupation on Virginia's baptism, and again is given on the 1841 marriage.
Whereas everything else we see for him says servant or labourer.

For anyone who wants to look at it, the case is here. Did he get off lightly :)
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse. ... 391216-325

William Snodin was still in Red Lion Street in 1841
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVP-8HN

Now Mr Snodin said in 1839 that William had worked for him for seven or eight years.
And if we remember the 1851 census in Chelsea, William said that son George, 17, was born in Lincolns Inn, and daughter Elizabeth in St Pancras (we have her alleged date and exact place of birth from the examinations, and it is true there is a discrepancy with her age in the census!)

Looking at a map from 1837 (just because it's close to the time, there may be better ones!)
http://mapco.net/cary1837/cary27.htm

we can see Lincoln's Inn Fields, with Red Lion Street just to the north on the other side of High Holborn.
Near the NW corner of the map is the bottom of Tottenham Court Road, so that should be in or in the vicinity of St Pancras, don't know whether it's the right bit of St Pancras though!
But, fingers crossed, the geography looks hopeful.

There's a bit more info on that William in PCOM 2 / 206, Newgate Prison, Register of Prisoners
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C1193504

Attaching a chunk (faded image) which may suggest that he hailed from Devizes. Although as a lot of Sainsburys seem to originate from Wiltshire, I'm not sure that is as helpful as it could be!
Ian
Attachments
Willm Sainsbury PCOM2.JPG
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:20 pm

Trying to get to the bottom of that address where Elizabeth was said to be born
Lockie's Topography of London
https://archive.org/details/lockiestopo ... /page/n251

Paradise - Street, Britannia - Street,
Battle - Bridge, St. Pancras, — a
few doors on the L. from Gray's-
inn-lane, it extends to Field-st.

That '37 map is not much good for Grays Inn Lane, it is chopped up a bit. Some of it is in the next section, to the east of the one linked to. We should therefore see a bit of it on the section with Red Lion Street, but anyway we can see Grays Inn Gardens. Hopefully Paradise Street was not so far away. But have run out of time to delve deeper into that tonight.

Although I will add the 1841 census street index!
Pancras Registration District
Paradise Street, near Britannia Street
Reference HO 107/682
Book no. 10
Folios 23-26
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov ... _Index_P-S
Ian
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby windowframe » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:52 am

Again a big thank you ianbee, you have been busy. I went onto Ancestry and printed the marriage
cert of William & Mary Ann Sainsbury 1841. Found the other info on Elizabeth Dorman(Sainsbury) and
William Sainsbury(the link did work) thank you.
Still not able to find the 1853 Exam Mrs Sainsbury 7 march Chelsea, still not able find on Lunatics,
(Kensington and Chelsea) 1848-1855, on Ancestry, I must be looking under the wrong headings.
All this has been mind boggling to me, and I have one more question I hope you can explain to me,
not wishing to sound ungrateful, why would William & Mary Ann Sainsbury marry so late after Virginia
was bpt.in 1828, and again how do we connect her into this family, I am at present searching to see
if I can find any birth/bpt records for children to Wm & Mary.
I will also check out the maps for the addresses that you have found. I must admit it all sounds like
my family, if only VIrginia's name was mentioned among it all.
Again Thank you for your time and patience, greatly appreciated.
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby ianbee » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Hi
If you got to the settlement records of Elizabeth and William all right, then the others are in the same book.
At the front of the book there is an index by first letter of surname.
Sainsbury Elizabeth (page) 174, 241, 291, 292
Sainsbury William 175

So you can jump around using the ancestry image number box at bottom of screen (fiddly thing!) to find those pages in the book.
I can't remember all the image numbers tonight, but I'll get hold of them if you need.
So pages 291 and 292 had the (brief) notes from/about Elizabeth and Mary Ann.
Which is what I expected to find.
I didn't realize at first there were other exams (I searched for the 7 March date 1853 before looking at the index!)
And it is William's exam which is perhaps most important. What a bonus to see the copy of the 1819 Westminster exam as well (you found that OK?)
I can give more links if needed.

On the identification of Virginia Sainsbury.
Well, firstly, it seems to have been a most uncommon name at the time. Virginia, I mean!
I haven't come across another Virginia Sainsbury.
So you have the 1828 Westminster baptism, which gives the names of both her parents, William and Mary Ann, and says that father William was a tallow chandler.
You have her marriage in Chelsea in 1848, said to be 19, father William, a Labourer. And giving an address in Little Smith Street, Chelsea. I don't think the witnesses are a help.

We then have the William and Mary Ann (as Ann in 1841) Sainsbury family in Chelsea in the 1841 and 1851 census. Actually were in Queen Street both times.
In between we have the baptism of Jane Sainsbury in 1845, and a burial of possibly the same Jane a couple of years later, both giving the abode as Little Smith Street.
The examination records confirm that the William + Mary Ann Sainsbury that we can see in Chelsea did not marry until 1841, despite having had children together from way back.
And then on finding that marriage, a bonus was that William said he was a Tallow Chandler.

Unless someone can rustle up another Virginia Sainsbury, or another William who called himself a tallow chandler, I honestly think it looks a good bet at the moment that it is the right family.

It is disappointing that Virginia cannot be found in 1841, either with that family, or anywhere else. But it does happen. My grandmother's sister is not recorded with her family in 1891 (she was six), nor have I found her elsewhere!

Why did William and Mary Ann wait so long to get married? Honestly, I have no idea. No one would be surprised or remark on that sort of thing nowadays, and it did sometimes happen back in the past as well. Often there would be a reason, usually being that one of them was married to someone else! But we don't have any evidence of that here.
And the marriage being so late does give you the other wonderful bonus of their fathers' names and occupations being on the record.
Ian
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby ianbee » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:54 pm

How to find that record manually in London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1738-1930, using "Browse this collection" ((you could find a way in via the bigger boxes, but I won't go into that now) - attached!
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1557

It shouldn't have been under "Record Type" Register of Lunatics of course.
It should have been under Settlement Papers, or Depositions. It might even have been under Miscellaneous.
What you want is right at the bottom of the drop down list, "Settlement and Relief 1848-1855"
I think there were a few papers regarding lunatics shoved into the front of that settlement exams book, which is how ancestry came to misfile it (but it doesn't take much for ancestry to mess up!)
Ian
Attachments
London Poor Law.JPG
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Re: Not able to find on 1841 census

Postby windowframe » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:39 am

Thank you ianbee, I will try again and check out the records you have quoted.
I have been doing searching, and have found so far:
London,England,Workhouse admission & discharge records 1858
Sainsbury Harriet age 18yrs. with son Charles she is a laundress.
then found baptism record for Charles Sainsbury born 25 May 1859 bpt.10Jun 1859 at Old Church,
St.Pancras,London mother as Harriett Sainsbury.
also found bapt. for Elizabeth Sainsbury 2 Jul 1843 at St Lukes,Chelsea parents as William Sainsbury and Mary Sainsbury FHL film No.2214585 (not really sure if this is ours).
I thought I would check to see if there was a marriage for Harriet and found 2
Harriet Sainsbury married Henry Sawyer 20June 1875 at St James church parish of Fulham,Middlesex
both living at 12 or 21 Stamford Road, her father is William Sainsbury not able to read profession.
2nd one found was Harriet Sainsbury age 21 married 9May 1887 at Newington to Charles Henry Campion her father as William Sainsbury.
Then checked census records and found:
1861 census at Fulham St.Johns: Mary Ann Sainsbury widow age 65 vendor in cotton born Dock head,surrey. with her was Harriet Sainsbury Granddaughter age 7 born Chelsea
living at 3 Stanley Park Rd(I think)
1871 census Fulham,Chelsea: Mary Ann Sainsbury widow age 73 part work receiving parish relief.
with her was Harriet age 50 born Newington,Surrey(cannot find her bapt)
William age 40 born Clerkenwell,Surrey(not able to find his bapt)
Elizabeth age 37 born Clerkenwell,Surrey(not able to find her bapt)under Dorman or Sainsbury(see above that I written as not sure if ours)
As you say Virginia is unusal for 1828. I will keep trying and see what else can be found, hopefully something may turn up connect Virginia with the above family, I checked Wills & Probate but of course if they were poor, no will.
Thank you again, please keep in touch if you find anything else, as I will to you. warm wishes.
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