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Expertise in Indian names anyone?

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:07 pm

This is just conjecture on my part, but could the father Mr Samuels have been American? That would account for Frank Leslie claiming on his 1920 passport application that his grandfather died in the Civil War. Unless that declaration shares as much validity as Gertrude's Malta birth. :roll:
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:39 am

Anything is possible about Mr Samuel's origin - he might well have been American but if young Frank knew that then it's a shame that he didn't know his father's proper name, rather than getting his (presumed) mother in law to hang the whole story on Mr N M Roya.... Although I wonder if the morality of the situation required NMR and Edith to be believed to be married, in which case, Frank would have acquired NMR's Indian citizenship (wouldn't that be British? As in, citizen of the Empire?) If Frank had acquired NMR's citizenship then that citizenship had to be American if Frank needed to avoid all the naturalization palaver.

I suspect that we need to work back in Frank's mind from the need for him to have magically acquired US citizenship with no effort on his part - that dictated that his legal (?) father should be an American citizen. Hmmm

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:08 pm

So - to add in the details of the Roy / Karikko marriage:
1897 Marriage solemnized at Register Office; District of Hackney in the County of London.
No. 37
When married: Eighth July 1897
Name: Nagendro Mohon Roy
Age: 22y
Condition: Bachelor
Profession: Professor of Sanskrit
Residence: 89 Mortimer Road, De Beauvoir Town
Father: Debendro Nath Roy
Profession of father: Estate Manager
Name: Milja Karikko
Age: 24y
Condition: Spinster
Profession: -
Residence: 89 Mortimer Road, De Beauvoir Town
Father: Charles Karikko
Profession of father: Exporter of Building Materials


If this is Edith's Nagendro Mohon Roya (variations in spelling exist!) then there is a mismatch on the age. In 1904 and 1905, he is shown to be born abt 1865/66. This age (22y) gives b abt 1874/75. Conversely, in 1905, he is a language teacher and in 1904 a Professor of Philosophy. Close...ish.

Milja / Emilia is supposed to be born 13 June 1869 according to a photo of her grave in the Finnish report - that would make her 28 at this point, not 24. The ages are a bit odd, really - if he really is younger than her, then you can understand her dialling her age down. But I don't want him to be younger than her!

Her father is, according to a MyHeritage Tree, named Kalle, but there is a translation of Kalle to Karl elsewhere on that page, and Karl is Charles.

Re: Nagendro's father Debendro Nath Roy - the only reference to that name (or similar) that I can find is a member of the Freemasons in Calcutta, who was a landowner. I suspect that without some further detail, that match would be just wild speculation.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:34 pm

Just to add a minor update - I have just spent most of today tracing "Edith" in passenger lists for 1912 & 1913. Some references I had beforehand, the rest I filled in today - some of them are so lacking in detail that of their own, I'd never know who they were for, but when you put them together, they make a coherent (for once) whole.

Her name is usually a variation on Roya - including Mrs N Roya, Mrs Roye, and one seriously odd Mrs. M Frandes Roya - but that's a badly damaged original. Regrettably, her age is seldom given.

Her previously known last appearance is in the 1912 Atlantic City Directory - all sight of her husband has been lost by the 1910 Census. The moves that I have traced are:
  • From Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to Liverpool, arriving 24 October 1912 on the SS Dominion;
  • From Liverpool to Calcutta, departing 30 October 1912 on the (City of?) Poona;
  • From Calcutta to London, arriving 25 January 1913 on the City of Poona;
  • From Liverpool to New York, departing 6 Feb 1913 on the SS Baltic (FindMyPast) and arriving New York 17 Feb 1913 (badly damaged list - Ancestry is washed out, the same list on FamilySearch is still poor but slightly better - enough to see words like "Calcutta");
  • From New York to Liverpool, arriving 4 April 1913;
She then marries Ezra Manning on 7 May 1913 in Cheshire - she claims to be 35y old, dropping 2y off the 37 she appears on a couple of the above lists.

And the nice part is ... she's in Calcutta from November 1912 to January 1913 - Ezra worked in Calcutta from Jan 1911 to Jan 1913, returning to England (Tilbury) on 11 January 1913 from Calcutta - so they didn't meet on board ship but it does look like they met in Calcutta.

Quite extraordinary that her USA-Calcutta-USA-Cheshire trips make a complete story with no missing bits! As for why she went to Calcutta - well, bearing in mind that her "husband", Mr Nagendro Mohon Roy(a) disappears, there must be a good chance that he died in the USA (New York or New Jersey, perhaps) - maybe, just maybe, he was cremated and she was taking his ashes home to India. If you were, "Madame Roya", then I salute you.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:56 pm

Adrian - thanks for the update and for solving the mystery of how/where Edith and Capt Manning met. I'm still pondering why Edith used "Rennymore" for her maiden name from 1913 onwards.

Could Edith Ada's (nee "Potter") birth family have been "travellers"?

I ask because the wife of my great-uncle was born into a family of travellers near Hailsham. I was struggling to tie together the loose ends of her childhood. But with brilliant assistance from Ian, sdup26, and AntonyM, I was able to confirm the family rumour of Leanda being from "travelling" stock.

Adding to my research frustration was the fact her parents married 7 years after her birth. To further complicate matters, Leanda indicated "father unknown" on her 1933 marriage certificate, and used her mum's maiden name instead. The mind does indeed boggle. :roll:

Maybe it's just a red herring, but Edith/Madame Roya did have that palmistry stint on the Atlantic City boardwalk. ;)
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:07 pm

MoVidger wrote:... Maybe it's just a red herring, but Edith/Madame Roya did have that palmistry stint on the Atlantic City boardwalk. ;)

Are you sure we're allowed to make comments like that these days? ;)

As it happens, Mesdames Edith and Fate may have played another trick on me... I was just trying to find out how long the City of Poona would have taken to get from Liverpool to Calcutta by looking in the FMP Newspapers. Plenty of departure dates but no arrivals - yet. What I did find in the "Homeward Mail from India, China and the East" of 19 October 1912 was a list of passengers (or, at least, the "more important" ones?) on Edith's voyage from Liverpool to Calcutta - I double checked and there was "Mrs. Roya" - and two entries before her was ... "Mr E Manning". Now, the passenger list form asks for "Occupation" but says, "In the case of First Class Passengers, this column need not be filled up." So, there is neither age nor occupation to indicate whether "Mr E Manning" might indeed be Edith's future husband, Ezra Manning. I haven't even tried to patch all Ezra's voyages together yet, so have no idea whether there are any further clues elsewhere as to whether that entry might indeed be him. (And this one was indexed as "C Manning" thanks to a curly "E").

But it may be that they met on the ship out to Calcutta - in which case, Ezra seems to have undertaken a swift about-turn in his career, given that he was returning to his work in Calcutta in October 1912 but then leaving it in January 1913.... Hardly suggests planning ahead.... If it's really him.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:30 pm

Latest Shipping Advices <Dundee Courier, 2 December 1912>
...
City of Poona at Calcutta Nov. 29.


30 October 1912 when the 'Poona leaves Liverpool - so that's basically a month for Liverpool-Calcutta. 'Poona was very new so other ships may be slower at this time.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:06 pm

My palmistry aside was meant in the best possible taste (apologies to Kenny Everett). On a serious note, my grandmother (Leanda's sister-in-law) was a dab hand in reading palms and tea leaves. She even taught me how to read tarot cards. Truth be told, my granny could've picked up her not-for-profit divination skills when she was living in Europe, Malta, and Egypt over a century ago.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:18 pm

Just for info - I'm still working on Edith Roya but I have written up the Kempton / Kaufmann Joseph and George Godber families for a post on my Wordpress blog in case anyone has a connection. See https://brucefuimus.wordpress.com/2019/04/09/kaufmann-joseph-turtles-all-the-way-down/

I had to sit reading Rebecca Probert to understand whether George Godber's marriage to Lydia, his "deceased wife's sister" was valid or what - turns out that it was void, so Lydia's marriage to Kaufmann Joseph was, strictly speaking, not bigamy. But I still think it's weird... I also found out that George Godber was married at least once more and possibly twice - and he now lies in Manchester's Southern Cemetery with 2 of his former wives - including Lydia.
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