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Expertise in Indian names anyone?

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:08 pm

ianbee wrote:There is no possibility that Ezra's wife is the Edith Manning who died in Bootle in 1947, age 73? ...

Nicely done. Maybe... I would think that there's a distinct chance that's her. Unfortunately no will to go with that... (I can't work those grave registers out either...)

ianbee wrote:Or was she the married cook in Carter Street, Liverpool, in 1939 (no husband with her), age would be a year or two out in that case.

That's what I was thinking earlier - when she went to the US in 1936, she gives Carter St as an address for daughter Ivy. I was quite prepared to decide that she'd stayed over there, but it looked like she came back - except that the Edith Manning who returns, is described as a domestic (I think). Since "Edith Manning" is not a rare name, I was prepared to think this was a different one until I found that 1939 entry in the same street as Ivy had been. Cook sounds a bit of a come-down but she'd spent several years with Ezra running the Swan Hotel near Ormskirk and then The Bull's Head Hotel in Congleton, so maybe she was in the kitchen? Maybe she was a bit more of an upmarket cook? Profiteroles and palms read? I need to double check that...

ianbee wrote:She is the Mrs Ezra Manning who attended the funeral of Captain Charles Edward Thornhill in Liverpool in 1925? ...

Certainly that one is her - there's only about 3 Ezra Mannings in the UK in recorded history and only Edith with a Liverpool link. Quite why Edith went to the funeral and not Ezra, I've no idea - I was hoping Captain Thornhill (who seems to originate from Staffordshire) might be a clue to Edith's origins but nothing suggests a link yet. Maybe Ezra knew the son but couldn't make the funeral...
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:49 pm

MoVidger wrote:With regards the 3rd Class Yellow document image, who is the "John Loughous? Tolton" mentioned in Edith's burial plot?

According to images 60/61 on LDS film 5893470, it's an October 1960 burial - he lived at 312 Derby Rd, Bootle and was 63y old. And the owner of the grave is still Ivy Kilema - Edith's daughter.

I think he's actually "John L Totton" in Ancestry's England & Wales death indexes, and also possibly "John Lockens Totton", born Q4 1900 Belfast. The latter JLT (according to IrishGenealogy.ie) is born to Edward Totton and Hannah Totton, formerly Mayberry.

None of which means anything to me, but hey! Why should it? :? Maybe he was a "friend" of Ivy - who'd married Philip Brooks in Q2 1960 by now.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:39 am

AdrianB38 wrote:According to images 60/61 on LDS film 5893470, it's an October 1960 burial - he lived at 312 Derby Rd, Bootle and was 63y old. And the owner of the grave is still Ivy Kilema - Edith's daughter.

Well done, Adrian.
I honestly thought I had looked it up, I must have found the wrong entry (it certainly wasn't one at the very bottom of the page), and the grave owner seemed to be someone completely different. My defence is that some of the writing is pretty ropey! Or - I got the burial number wrong :oops:

It appears that in the graves registers they have "redacted" the owners names? Lucky they haven't done so in the burial registers!
Anyway, it does seem that you have now killed off Edith in 1947, so progress of a sort!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby elsabels » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:50 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:
MoVidger wrote:With regards the 3rd Class Yellow document image, who is the "John Loughous? Tolton" mentioned in Edith's burial plot?

According to images 60/61 on LDS film 5893470, it's an October 1960 burial - he lived at 312 Derby Rd, Bootle and was 63y old. And the owner of the grave is still Ivy Kilema - Edith's daughter.

I think he's actually "John L Totton" in Ancestry's England & Wales death indexes, and also possibly "John Lockens Totton", born Q4 1900 Belfast. The latter JLT (according to IrishGenealogy.ie) is born to Edward Totton and Hannah Totton, formerly Mayberry.

None of which means anything to me, but hey! Why should it? :? Maybe he was a "friend" of Ivy - who'd married Philip Brooks in Q2 1960 by now.
,

John TOTTON is listed on the 1939 Register at 41 Bedford Road dob 1 Oct 1896 married, also in the h/hold is a Doris TOTTON b 26 April 1912 status married against this entry is SHAW 2.5.1949
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby elsabels » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:33 pm

Just rummaging...

03 March 1925 - Gloucester Citizen - Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England

THORNHILL—February 23rd. at the residence eon. 64, Rundle-road. Aigburth, Liverpool. Charles Edward dearly-beloved husband of Julia Thornhill (nee Fieher), late of Stroud, aged 74 years.

It appears that CET was b 1851 Darlaston and in 1870 acquired his mariners certificate...the Captain being a Master Mariner
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:20 pm

ianbee wrote:This pair have had me tearing my hair out for the last 24 hours or more!
... Are they even related to each other? ...
Sep 1896 Steyning 2b 270
Samuels, Frank Leslie
mother Potter

Going back a few years there was a Gertrude (but not in Malta!)
Sep 1893 Altrincham 8a 17
Samuels, Gertrude Jessie
mother Potter

...

Ian - this just might be your greatest triumph yet... :o

I sent off for these 2 birth certs with, err, interesting results. Firstly Gertrude:
  • Her full name was going to be Gertrude Stephanie Jessie Samuels, but the "Stephanie" is scored through in an amendment;
  • The Gertrude who married Alfred Simon in the USA was Gertrude S J Roya (definitely SJ by the way);
  • Her birth date 24 June 1893 at 22 Bank St, Sale;
  • Her father was Samuel Samuels, a commercial traveller;
  • Her mother was Ada Samuels, formerly Potter.

Now Frank:
  • His full name is Frank Leslie Samuels;
  • Frank Roya's full name was Frank Leslie Roya;
  • His birth was 4 July 1896, Hove;
  • Frank Leslie Roya claimed to be born 4 July though not, so far as I remember, 1896. He does claim to be born "South Brighton" and I always associate Brighton and Hove together (as in Brighton & Hove Albion);
  • His father was Frank Samuels, a jeweller;
  • His mother was ... pause for drumroll ... Ada Edith Samuels formerly Potter.

Well... Allowing Ada for Ida, this also fits into Kempton and Ida Joseph in the 1901 - Frank and Gertrude match by age, and Frank by birthplace. Gertrude isn't born in Malta but the more down-market Sale. Kempton Joseph was a Jeweller and traveller but this may simply be a reflection of the circles Ada Edith / Ida moved in.

Certainly there is serious matching going on btw the 1901 census, the 2 births and the Roya soap opera...
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:30 pm

"Gertrude isn't born in Malta but the more down-market Sale".


Reminds me of a disdainful line about Tooting Bec from "Evil Under The Sun". :lol: And I especially enjoyed Adrian's other quip regarding offers of "profiteroles and palmistry".

Well done to Ian, Adrian, and everyone else tackling the complexities of this baffling family puzzle.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:35 pm

Hi Adrian
Thanks for letting us know. I didn't expect you to get those certificates!
It's kind of surprising, without really being surprising... if you know what I mean.
It looks then like it may be the Frank Leslie in question. And presumably then Gertrude as well. Though it hasn't helped with her death thus far.
Strange that Mr Samuels is given as Samuel on one birth, then Frank on the other. May be two different people in reality, perhaps. Edith if she is Ada Edith Potter is seemingly still proving to be elusive? This one seems set to run and run!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby elsabels » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:43 pm

MoVidger wrote:
"Gertrude isn't born in Malta but the more down-market Sale".


Reminds me of a disdainful line about Tooting Bec from "Evil Under The Sun". :lol: And I especially enjoyed Adrian's other quip regarding offers of "profiteroles and palmistry".

Well done to Ian, Adrian, and everyone else tackling the complexities of this baffling family puzzle.


I am not so sure that the address in Sale would have been considered 'down market in the time period we are talking about!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 pm

ianbee wrote:... I didn't expect you to get those certificates! ...

The suspense of not knowing was getting too much! I've also sent for the NM Roy marriage to the Finnish lady, just in case it adds anything more to his story.

ianbee wrote:... Strange that Mr Samuels is given as Samuel on one birth, then Frank on the other. May be two different people in reality, perhaps. ...

Distinctly possible that it's two different people and probably neither really named Samuels! Then again, Frank L Roya did turn out to have a birthday of 4 July, so maybe I do them an injustice! I wonder if Ida / Ada / Edith's speciality was running boarding houses for commercial travellers, etc.? (Hmm - I do appear to be writing this as if I believe that they are all the same person.)
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