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Expertise in Indian names anyone?

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:15 pm

ianbee wrote:... a family in Birmingham in 1901? Piece 2833 folio 80 page 27. Though they are probably a very outside possibility. ...

:o That looks a good possibility - and with the amount of dodgy data I've seen with this lot, it seems like a very good fit.
Ida Joseph Wife Married Female 28 1873 Brighton, Sussex, England

Yes the name is off and "Ida" doesn't seem like a recognised variant of "Edith", but would her husband's (supposed) German accent alter things? A frivolous aside - if I try to think of "Edith" in a foreign accent, I can't get beyond Rene's wife, Mme Edith, in 'Allo 'Allo. It does match the 1904 immigration age, pretty well, but I have anything btw 1864-1876 with a birthplace in Bengal, England, Atlantic City...

Gertr Joseph Daughter - Female 7 1894 Malta

I have about 1893/94, England, for Gertrude so this matches on date. Maureen says that a later US Census for her gives Malta as her birthplace but Malta is referred to for Frank.

Frank Joseph Son - Male 4 1897 Brighton, Sussex, England

Ignoring the fantasy birth of 4 July for Frank, I have 1895/96 and Malta so far for him - that seems to hold up. Brighton is also quoted in later documents for him, so that's a match. If Malta gets swapped btw Gertrude and Frank, no surprise...

Ian - regardless of anything - huge thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 pm

Just to confirm our latest mystery character - Kempton Joseph is his name. He's in Ancestry's Birmingham, England, Rate Books, 1831-1913 at 74 Bath Row (as per the 1901) and the name was originally written as (given name) Joseph (family name) Kempton - this has been corrected in the original to (given name) Kempton (family name) Joseph.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:15 am

Gertrude also gives Malta as her birthplace on her 1911 marriage record to Alfred Simon in New Jersey.
The 1901 address of 74 Bath Row was mainly a boarding house for theatrical folk and others. Perhaps the family were there temporarily? Kempton Joseph doesn't appear in any other census records that I can see. Did he return to Germany or continue on his global travels?

Frank gives his birthplace as "South Brighton" on his 1920 passport application and a draft registration card. The lady providing a reference for him (his mother-in-law?) states that Frank was born in Brighton because his parents were only there temporarily. Could Frank's birth have been registered in another city/county? But under which surname? :roll:

Frank's passport application also states that he wants to travel abroad to visit his mother and sister. This explains why Gertrude is tough to locate in the 1920 census. The 1940 census indicates she had returned to New York by 1935.

Given that Edith married Ezra Manning in 1913 in Cheshire, what made her leave the USA when Frank was still a teenager? Was he still in the naughty boy's home in New Jersey when she returned to England?
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby elsabels » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am

Frank's passport application also states that he wants to travel abroad to visit his mother and sister.


I took that as being mother Edith & half sister Ivy!

Just be wary there is a Joseph KEMPTON, who married a Edith Ellen in 1896 Birmingham....

On the passport application Frank states he was in the UK March - Dec 1911...hopefully we can find him on the 1911 UK census
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:27 pm

MoVidger wrote:Gertrude also gives Malta as her birthplace on her 1911 marriage record to Alfred Simon in New Jersey. ...

Help Maureen! I can't find this!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:47 pm

It's Turtles All The Way Down!

So - we have a rather interesting at 74 Bath Row, Birmingham, in the 1901 census. Head of family is "Kempton Joseph", aged 39, i.e. b abt 1861 in Germany, a jeweller & traveller. It really doesn't take much to decide that "Kempton" is at best an Anglicisation. So I checked the Ancestry UK censuses for anyone surnamed Joseph, b 1861 +/-10y in Germany - then visually looked for named beginning "K" or "C".

In the 1891 there are:
Kipp Joseph b1866 Germany - a probably blameless pastry cook, living in Aldershot.
Kaufmann Joseph b1869 Germany Brother Elswick, Northumberland - a picture framer

In the 1901, we have our Kempton.

In the 1911 we have
Kaufman (indexed as Kerman) Joseph married to Lydia Ada, he is b abt 1870 in Germany, living South Manchester (Chorlton on Medlock?), Lancashire.

Now, Birmingham Kempton is b abt 1861, which is quite different from Manchester Kaufman(n) who is b abt 1870/69 (assuming he's in Northumberland in 1891). But Manchester Kaufman is a Commercial Traveller in jewellery. Basically the same as Birmingham Kempton. Given the absence of Kaufman from the 1901 and that of Kempton from any census other than 1901 - it does look very plausible that Kempton and Kaufman are the same person. Further, I can see no BMD for K*ton Joseph and I didn't spot any other record for him apart from the Birmingham Rates Book.

Now, Manchester Kaufman claims on his 1911 to have been married for 12y to Mrs Lydia Ada Joseph (they have one child). This length of time is a lie (yes, I'm getting blunt!) According to the Ancestry BMD, they married Q4 1902 in Chorlton - just 8y before. He may be protecting his daughter, Kathleen, who is 10 at this point. So with already one mark against Kaufman for this 12 v 8 fib, is it stretching it too much, given that he is a Commercial Traveller in jewellery, to suggest that Kaufman periodically said goodbye to Lydia, left Manchester on the train with his samples, arrived in Birmingham as the slightly older Kempton and trotted down to the loving arms of Ida?

If he didn't then may I be forgiven!!!

Kaufman dies in 1915, probate to Lydia Ada, his widow.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:51 pm

I checked into Kempton / Kaufman in case he could contribute to the story of Edith Roya and her children - I'm not seeing him as any help, so I'm not intending to take him further. ("Unless, of course, you know better!")
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:09 am

Adrian - sorry for the delay, I've been in back-to-back meetings all day and have only just come up for air! Gertrude's 1911 marriage record can be found on Ancestry. It's in the New Jersey, United Methodist Church Records, 1800-1970 record set. She is recorded as Gertrude S.J.Roya. Age 18. Marriage place: Atlantic City.

Her husband Alfred Simon was a recent German emigrant and is easy to locate in US census records from 1910 onwards. He is "remarried" by the 1940s and passes away shortly after.

Side note: It appears Frank passed away in the early 1970s (1973?) in Connecticut. Still using his 4 July birthdate!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:52 am

This pair have had me tearing my hair out for the last 24 hours or more!
Have hesitated to mention them, as they shouldn't be relevant at all. Are they even related to each other? What happened to them?
Hoping against hope that if Frank really was born in Brighton, Sussex, he might have been registered under some name or other, a mystery birth from that area did pop up.
Sep 1896 Steyning 2b 270
Samuels, Frank Leslie
mother Potter

Going back a few years there was a Gertrude (but not in Malta!)
Sep 1893 Altrincham 8a 17
Samuels, Gertrude Jessie
mother Potter

Apart from those registrations I have been unable to find them. Can someone help?
The Samuels-Potter marriage in Toxteth Park in 1882, with a couple of births following, looks to be unconnected.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:09 pm

MoVidger wrote:... Gertrude's 1911 marriage record can be found on Ancestry. It's in the New Jersey, United Methodist Church Records, 1800-1970 record set. She is recorded as Gertrude S.J.Roya. Age 18. Marriage place: Atlantic City ...


Thanks Maureen - I'd actually already put that into my Ancestry Shoebox - unfortunately for Albert & Gertrude, the birthplaces in that document (2 images, a left and right page) are Germany (Albert) and America (Gertrude). Unless I'm missing something, there's no mention of Malta on the marriage, which is what I was interested in. (This lot would bamboozle anyone...)
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