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James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

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James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:22 am

Hello

I was wondering if anyone could help me. I am trying to trace two people, James McGuire (1833 Ireland) and Rachel Morgan (1835 - Ireland). I have records of their marriage in Temple, Midlothian, Scotland in 1857. From that record I can establish that James McGuire’s parents are Thomas and Mary McGuire (both deceased) and Rachel’s parents are John Morgan and Anne Jones.

I want to trace them back in Ireland. I have searched for the census with their parents names and nothing has come up. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
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Marriage certificate
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby shanew147 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:19 am

Do any of the Scottish census returns show a county or town of origin in Ireland for your James and/or Rachel ?
At the time of the primary Valuation both surnames appear throughout Ireland, the surname Morgan was most common the Co. Down followed by Co. Armagh, and the surname McGuire most common in Co. Fermanagh and other Northern counties but also in Co. Dublin. Properties occupied by people with the surname Jones were more scattered around Ireland with concentrations in counties Dublin, Cork and Armagh.

What denomination were they ? edit : marriage seems to be Catholic

There are a number of James/Jacobus McGuire Catholic baptisms in Ireland 1830+-10 with parent Thomas and Mary but none where the mother's surname is also McGuire... nothing promising either in Catholic records for any children to a John Morgan and Anne Jones that I see in Catholic records around that time.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:56 pm

Hi

Thank you for your reply. No, none of the census says the county they were born in, just Ireland. Is there any transportation list which I can search to see when James and Rachel game over?

They appeared to be Roman Catholic. I am not sure how to narrow down which are the correct people?

Thanks

Ellie
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby shanew147 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:10 pm

There were no passenger lists for travel between Ireland and any part of Britain - back then we were part of the United Kingdom so the equivalent of walking over the border between England and Scotland.

Since there appears to be no information as to the location either came from, then the only clues at this stage are the names of the parents. It might be worth trying to locate death certs for James and Rachel to see if they confirm the parents names, assuming they died in Scotland... although the accuracy of the information on registration of deaths depend on who the informant is, and how accurate their knowledge is. Another possible line of investigation might be to try to locate any possible siblings in Scotland and follow their trail.

Registers for most of the Catholic Parishes in Ireland (over 1,000) are available free as images on the National Library of Ireland Website, and indexed on FindMyPast and Ancestry. Bear in mind that there are some parishes which do not have records back to the 1830s and there are also some missing, damaged and faded pages in the registers, which can sometimes lead to gaps in the records, if you know a specific parish you can browse the images to try to make out some of the details.

Catholic baptism records usually include surnames for father and mother, whereas most Church of Ireland and Presbyterian baptisms leave out the mother's maiden surname making these more difficult to conclusively identify.

EDIT - for reference, the searches of Catholic baptisms I ran earlier was based on parents names 10 years either side of 1830, for all of Ireland.
Last edited by shanew147 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby shanew147 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:56 pm

Looking at this another way I searched for possible Catholic marriages for these couples in Ireland - only a small number of Morgan/Jones marriages none matched the first names, or the timeframe.

There was however one promising Thomas Maguire/Mary Maguire marriage around the right time in Tallanstown Catholic Parish which is in west Co. Louth and in the Diocese of Armagh. The marriage took place on the 12th August 1828, and the witnesses appear to be Anne Conly and Edward Campbell. See near the top left of this page.

There seems to be a gap in the Baptism records for Tallanstown, between mid 1825 and September 1830, which could explain why there's no baptisms showing for this couple.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:01 pm

Hi

Thank you for this information! I really appreciate it. I can’t attach the death certificates for James and Rachel. But the details are as follows:-

James :-

Rachel-

Rachel McGuire married to James McGuire (Quarryman)
Rachel died 16 October 1899.
Father: John Morgan - Farm Labourer (deceased)
Mother: Ann Morgan nee Jones (deceased)
James McGuire was the afformant

James’ death certificate
Died 21st January 1908 - Hunthcoat, Temple
Father and Mother - Unknown
Informant is John Alves who is his son in law.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby shanew147 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:50 pm

at least Rachel's death record confirms her parents names, a pity there's no details of parents on James' record.

Unfortunately it's looking like Rachel and her family came from a parish which does not have records going back far enough or took place in a parish where there are gaps in the records. It's not unusual to come across 'missing' baptisms for a family, in these cases it's sometimes possible to narrow down a parish by searching for possible siblings but my earlier search should have covered these - the Morgan/Jones combination of surnames is fairly distinctive.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby MayHam » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:43 am

Coincidentally, rootsireland lists several children born to a Thomas & Mary (McGuire) McGuire in Co. Mayo from 1829-1854. This includes two James McGuire's baptised 1830 and 1836, respectively.
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby shanew147 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:54 am

MayHam wrote:Coincidentally, rootsireland lists several children born to a Thomas & Mary (McGuire) McGuire in Co. Mayo from 1829-1854. This includes two James McGuire's baptised 1830 and 1836, respectively.


I saw those both in Aughagower RC parish, the transcripts are a little misleading - the original baptism entries do not include a maiden surname for the mother, so no way to know her actual surname. There's no Maguire/Maguire marriage in the area that I could see..
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Re: James McGuire - 1833 - Ireland and Rachel Morgan

Postby MayHam » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:50 pm

Thank you, shanew147.

BTW, ScotlandsPeople lists a Catherine, daughter of Thomas Mcguire & Mary Mcguire, born in 1844 and baptized in the Catholic Church in Glasgow.
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