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Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

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Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby Siann » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:58 pm

I am helping a work colleague’s mum with her Cornish ancestry and have hit a real brick wall. She knows that her grandfather, Robert Penberthy Kneebone was born in Phillack,Cornwall and that he married Mary Jane Spray.

The Cornwall OPCs lists the marriage of Robert Kneebone and Mary Jane Spray at Phillack parish church on 23 October 1907. Robert’s age is given as 28 years and his father is Richard Kneebone, an engineer.

The 1939 Register shows Robert and Mary Kneebone living at 94 Swanwick Road, Leabrooks, Derbyshire which has been confirmed as the correct address by my colleague’s mum. Robert’s date of birth is listed as 21st November 1878 (although above it the number 25 is faintly written).

I searched the birth indexes and could find only one Robert Kneebone born in the 1870s which was in the 4Q 1877, Redruth RD, mother’s maiden name Seaddon. There are no other Kneebone / Seaddon births and no marriage of a Kneebone to Seaddon. I applied for the birth certificate and did the following searches whilst waiting for it to arrive.

I can find only one Robert Kneebone on the censuses which matches the above:

1881 – Ventonleague, Phillack
Andrew Nicholls, 39, carpenter
Ann Nicholls, 34, b Hayle
Richard Kneebone, 25, wid, porter, b Hayle
Robert Kneebone, 4, b Hayle
Richard Kneebone, 3 b Hayle

1891 – Church Street, Phillack
Richard Kneebone, Head, 35, ship’s engineer, b Hayle (whole family born in Hayle)
Mary J, wife, 36
Robert, son, 13, grocer’s errand boy
Beatrice, dau, 10
William J, son, 7
Richard A, son, 6
Elizabeth H, dau, 3
Jane Tabb, mother in law, 70

1901 – St John’s Street, Phillack
Mary J Kneebone, Head, m, 45, b Hayle (all born in Hayle)
Robert, son, 23, Tender to Cordite House?
Beatrice, dau, 20, dressmaker
Elizabeth, dau, 13
John, son, 17, carpenter
Richard, son, 13, draper’s errand boy
May, dau, 6
Albert, son, 2
Richard Kneebone senior was aboard “The Lizard” which was docked at Woolwich on the night of the 1901 census

1911 – St John’s St, Phillack
Mary Jane Kneebone, mar, 54, b Hayle
Richard, son, 25, baker
Elizabeth, dau, 23, dressmaker
Emeline, dau, 19 domestic help
Albert Kneebone, son, 12, school
Loveday Kneebone, boarder, 67

1911 – Phillack
Robert Kneebone, married 3 years, 32, Butcher’s Assistant, born Phillack
Mary Jane Kneebone, married 3 years, 29, born Alfreton, Derbyshire

The Cornishman and West Briton & Cornwall Advertiser both carried reports of the 1907 marriage between Robert Kneebone and Mary Jane Spray listing Richard Kneebone as the groom’s brother and the bridesmaids as Emeline and May Kneebone, sisters of the groom indicating I've found the correct family on the above census returns. My colleague’s mum remembered aunts Lizzie, Emmeline and May and uncles Albert and Richard.

Robert’s birth certificate gives a date of birth of 25th November 1877 at Connor Downs, Gwithian, son of Richard and Mary Kneebone (nee Scaddon). Richard was a general labourer and he registered the birth. There’s a potential baptism at Gwithian: Robert Kneebone s/o Richard and Mary, porter, abode Connor Downs, bp 16 January 1878.

I checked the births of the other Kneebone children and found the following, all Redruth RD:
Richard b 4Q 1878, mmn Rule
Mary Beatrice b 4Q 1880, mmn Rule
William John b 4Q 1883, mmn Tabb
Richard Allen b 1Q 1885, mmn Tabb
Lizzie Holman b 1Q 1888, mmn Tabb
Ernest Edward b 4Q 1889, mmn Tabb
Jane Emmeline b 2Q 1892, mmn Tabb
Edith May b 31 May 1894 bp 13 Sep 1894 (no birth found in GRO Index)
Albert Edward 3Q 1898, mmn Tabb

Richard and Mary Beatrice appear to be the children of this marriage:-

Richard Kneebone married Minnie Rule on 27th October 1877 at the Wesleyan Chapel, district of Redruth. He was aged 22 years, bachelor, labourer of Ventonleague, Phillack, father William Kneebone deceased, a labourer. Minnie Rule, spinster, 19 years of Connor Downs, Gwithian, no father’s details. The witnesses were William George Rail and William Pearce.

Richard junior was born on 9 November 1878, bp on 26 February 1880 at Gwithian, s/o Richard and Mary Kneebone, father a railway porter, abode Connor Downs.

Mary Beatrice was born 20 October 1880, bp 17 January 1881 at Phillack, d/o Richard and Mary Kneebone, father a labourer, abode Copperhouse.

Minnie Kneebone was buried at Phillack on 13 November 1880, aged 21 years.
Richard Kneebone junior was buried at Phillack on 10 November 1881, aged 3 years, of Church Street.

Richard Kneebone married Mary Jane Tabb 4Q 1882, Redruth RD. (His 5 month old daughter, Mary Beatrice, was lodging with his future mother-in-law, Jane Tabb, at Church Street, Phillack on the 1881 census). Their children are listed above.

Further corroboration that I must be on the right track is that in 1881 Richard Kneebone was lodging with his married sister, Ann Nicholls. She was born Ann Kneebone b 4Q 1845, mmn Martin. Loveday Kneebone who was lodging with the family in 1911 is another sister – her birth was registered 4Q 1843, mmn Martin. Richard Penberthy Kneebone b 2Q 1855 mmn Martin. The Penberthy name appears to be a generation earlier than my colleague’s mum thought and it was Robert’s father who had this as a middle name, not Robert.

The purpose of my post is to find out who Mary Scaddon was. Robert was born one month after the man who appears to be his father married Minnie Rule. Are Minnie Rule and Mary Scaddon the same person? I understand that Minnie can be a form of Mary which may explain why Richard and Mary Beatrice are baptised as children of Mary in the parish registers, but I have looked into Minnie’s background and she does appear to have been born as Minnie not Mary. Extensive searches have not found any connection between the Scaddon and Rule families.

I am completely baffled and would be so grateful for any help in solving this. Apologies for a convoluted post but I wanted to include as much information as possible to avoid wasting anyone’s time in duplicating the searches.

With grateful thanks.
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby elsabels » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:07 am

It is late, but I have been rummaging around the records, primarily following RIchard Kneebone's second wife Mary Jane TABB who he married in 1882 & her mother Jane, who I think is on the 1841 census HO107; Piece: 147; Book: 16; Civil Parish: Kenwyn; County: Cornwall; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 5; Page: 2; Line: 10 as Jane HOLMAN.

One of the children has the middle name of Holman

GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 240

GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 250

GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 232

I need to pices this together but found an Elizbeth HOLMAN as a house servant to a fmialy by the name of SCADDON

: HO107; Piece: 1913; Folio: 427; Page: 11;
Richard Scaddon 69
Elizabeth Scaddon 60
Thomas Ralph 39
Elizabeth Holman 15

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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby elsabels » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:37 pm

How much research have you done on the KNEEBONE family?
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby Siann » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:59 pm

Elsabels - Thank you so much for this information. I shall have a look at the Holman/Scaddon link and hope it leads to solving the mystery.

To answer your question about my searches on the Kneebone family - I have found Richard and Mary Jane Kneebone (nee Tabb) on the census returns and traced them and their children forward. My colleague's mum was able to tell me the names of Robert's siblings and their spouses (before I commenced any searches) so I knew the children of Richard Kneebone and Mary Jane Tabb were definitely the right family.

There's a birth of Richard Penberthy Kneebone in 1855 mmn Martin which ticks all the boxes. My colleague's mum is quite sure that Penberthy featured as the middle name of her ancestors and again she told me this before I began searching. Richard Penberthy Kneebone's parents were William Kneebone and Ann Martin who married at Phillack in July 1837. I have found them on the censuses and the births of their children but I haven't yet traced them all forward to see what became of them. I do know that Richard Kneebone b 1855 was lodging with his married sister, Ann, in 1881. His other sister, Loveday, was lodging with his family in 1911.

Once again, thank you for your suggestions re Holman and Scaddon and also the potential for Mary Jane Tabb's mother to have been born a Holman - I shall look further into that and hope it leads to finding out who Mary Scaddon named on Robert's birth certificate is. I'm completely baffled!

Grateful thanks.
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby elsabels » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:54 pm

Your original request for the mother of Robert Kneebone.....
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 299

Entry from Cornwall opc Burial records
KNEEBONE Minnie 21 Bodriggy 13-Nov 1880

GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 292 Order
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 316

Not sure about this but it does fit other than the forename
RG 9; Piece: 1585; Folio: 100; Page: 19;
William Odgers 42
Elizabeth Odgers 39
Ann Odgers 12
Elizabeth Odgers 8
William Odgers 7
John Odgers 5
Charles Odgers 3
Mary Odgers 3/12
Mary Rule 1 Nursechild Gwithian??

Cornish Telegraph 3 April 1867 William RICHARDS to Ann RULE both of Connor Downs, Gwithian
RG10; Piece: 2329; Folio: 58; Page: 7;
Ann RICHARDS b 1826
Minnie RULE stepdaughter

I have found Richard and Mary Jane Kneebone (nee Tabb) on the census returns and traced them and their children forward

Looking at Jane TABB mother in law....her marriage appears to suggest she was a KNEEBONE

Jane Kneebone / William Tabb
Father John Kneebone
Birth 1821
14/05/1843 Phillack, Cornwall, England
suggest she was a KNEEBONE

In 1841 Jane was listed as being with William TABB & Catherine Holman
HO107; Piece: 143; Book: 13; Civil Parish: Phillack; County: Cornwall; Enumeration District: 3; Folio: 16; Page: 25; Line: 1
William Tabb 25 desc as Butcher
Jane Akubow 20
Catherine Hohnan 15

Working back from Robert b 1877 of Robert Penberthy Kneebone b1855 married Minnie Rule/ Mary TABB of William b 1811 Ann/ Nancy Martin of John Kneebone who married Mary Blewitt in 1809 Richard Kneebone b 1855 & his wife Mary Jane TABB b 1855!

Now to The John Holman on the census return b 1837 appears to be John Rule Holman.....his parents William Holman & Mary Rule married 1835...most of the children have the middle name of RULE.....I haven't explored their connection with the family yet.

This may be a red herring
Name: Ann Kneebone
Spouse: Richd Penberthy
Marriage Date: 1809
Parish: Phillack
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby Siann » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Elsabels – thank you very much for you very valued contribution, it is very much appreciated.

By chance I spent all of Thursday evening on this and discovered that Jane Tabb was born a Kneebone. In fact, Richard Kneebone and Mary Jane Tabb appear to be first cousins as his father and her mother are siblings (if my searches are correct). Your finding Jane’s maiden name is reassuring that I am on the right track. Thank you.

I’m not sure that the Minnie Rule birth 1Q 1861 MMN Hocking is the person who married Richard Kneebone in 1877. The Minnie born in 1861 appears to be the daughter of William and Blanch Rule and her father was still alive in 1877. I have uploaded the marriage certificate of Richard Kneebone and Minnie Rule which shows that Minnie’s father’s details have been left blank.

I think Minnie, first wife of Richard Kneebone, is more likely to be Mary Rule b 1Q 1860 Redruth, mmn -, the illegitimate daughter of Ann Rule which would explain why her father’s details are missing from the marriage certificate. You have kindly identified the marriage of Minnie’s mother Ann to William Richards in 1867. I also believe she must be the nurse child in the house of Odgers family in 1861 and with her mother and stepfather William and Ann Richards in 1871.

The mystery is why Robert’s birth certificate shows his mother as Mary Scaddon (copy uploaded below). We know that Robert was living with his half-siblings on future censuses who were, without question, the children of Minnie Rule and Mary Tabb and he’s consistently stated to be the son of Richard on every census. Robert was born just one month after Richard Kneebone and Minnie Rule were married making them ideal candidates for his parents. It’s just the mother’s name which is driving me to distraction. Was Mary/Minnie Rule once known as Scaddon?

The information about Elizabeth Kneebone’s husband being John Rule Holman is very interesting. It does get really complicated at times with the same names cropping up again and again in such a small area. I shall pursue this one with interest.

I’d not found the marriage of Richard Penberthy and Ann Kneebone – that’s fantastic, thank you. Now to working out where they fit into the family.

If only I could crack the case of Mary Scaddon!
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby Siann » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:00 pm

Second attempt to upload the certificates:

cert2 Birth.jpg
Robert Kneebone Birth Certificate
cert2 Birth.jpg (643.24 KiB) Viewed 1413 times

cert1 Mar.jpg
Richard Kneebone/Minnie Rule Marriage Certificate
cert1 Mar.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 1413 times
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby elsabels » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 pm

Thanks for getting back, pleased to know some of the research is helpful. my conclusion small village area life and names can get very muddled and it appears ot be a Methodist area...i.e non conformist, these records are slowly starting to become available on line.....

Mary Scaddon, I am wondering if we have the right Robert Kneebone. we know we want his mother to be either Minnie or at a stretch Mary but not this Mary........

Did you note that Mary was FORMERLY Scaddon? Most birth certificates I have show the mother as NEE, in fact my own states FORMERLY then NEE my mother having been previously married....

1) Are we looking at the correct family?
2) the birth occurred in Connah Downs which is most likely to be the mother's area
3) The marriage certificate suggests that father William is deceased in 1877

Back to the drawing board....... :roll:
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Re: Robert Kneebone - Who is his mother?

Postby elsabels » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:26 am

Just come across a news item, one to eliminate?

Royal Cornwall Gazette 30 November 1877
KNEEBONE at Rosswarne Gwinnear on 24th November the wife of Mr Richard Kneebone, a son

Royal Cornwall Gazette 07 October 1876
........the wife of Mr Richard Kneebone, a son stillborn

Royal Cornwall Gazette 17 January 1879
...10 January the wife of Mr Richard Kneebone, a son
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