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Sarah Amelia Fox

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Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby brendonavoo69 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:02 pm

Hello
Was wondering if anyone could help me?
I’m trying to find the marriage certificate or even marriage banns between a Sarah Amelia Fox and a Thomas Sipthorpe/ Sibthorpe. I believe the marriage occurred somewhere in Middlesex between 1870 and 1876. They had 8 children and I can see on their birthday certificates that their mothers maiden name was Fox. But I simply can’t find anything related to their marriage. If anyone can help me it would be very much appreciated. I have even checked the FreeBMD website and nothing appears. I believe Sarah was born about 1847 and Thomas was born in 1851.
Many thanks
Brendon
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby woodchal » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:17 am

If Sarah Amelia Fox had been married previously and her husband had died shortly thereafter (quite common) and she remarried Thomas as a widow then the maiden name on birth registrations would indeed be Fox, but the marriage to Thomas would be under her married name.

Maybe worth looking for earlier Sarah Amelia Fox marriage or tackle it from the Thomas end looking for a marriage to any Sarah Amelia
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby woodchal » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:30 am

There is a 1911 census return for Sarah Amelia Sipthorpe, where she is a widow. She had entered that she had been married for 36 years and this has been crossed out because this information wasn't required of widows.

This would narrow the marriage down to about 1875.

Also crossed out was the fact that she had 20 children of which 17 had died! It must be a very sad story.
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby ciderdrinker » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:20 pm

Hi
I can't see the marriage either.
Sarah Fox aged 20 is on the 1871 census with her parents Charles and Maria 38 Coburg Row Westminster.
There is a possible marriage 25th July 1876 Westminster to a Herbert Salmon
Thomas is born in Enfield son of Thomas and Sarah sibthorpe seems to be missing from the 1871 census after the death of his mother in 1870.
There seems to be a school record for him age 9 years 8 mths in June 1860 at St Johns National school leaving the school.He joined 1857 and was of 12 Hale St
On the 1861 they were at Andersons Yard Enfield -Thomas 31 lab Sarah 30 and Thomas 10.

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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby sdup26 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:29 pm

I can't find the name Sarah Amelia Fox in birth records for Middlesex. But there are births for a Sarah Amelia + another surname, and I've used those to look for a marriage to a Thomas Sipthorp (or vars such as Sibthorpe), with no luck. Is it worth noting that in censuses, Sarah doesn't have the second name Amelia, in full or as an initial A? The only Sarah Amelia seems to be the one found by woodchal in 1911.

There are children listed as surname Sipthorp, mother's maiden name Fox, on the GRO site, and the first seems to have been Thomas b 1874. If he was Thomas and Sarah's son, we can discount Sarah's possible marriage to Herbert Salmon in 1876. But maybe Thomas and Sarah couldn't marry each other because one of them was already married, and separated from their still-alive spouse.

Incidentally, on the 1871 census for Enfield, there's a Thomas Sibthorpe, lodger, labourer, b1851 Mdx.
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby brendonavoo69 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:45 pm

Many thanks everyone for all the help. So far I know that Thomas and Sarah Amelia had at least 3 boys called Thomas. One was of them was born in 1876 and died a year later. Another was born in 1885 with a twin sister called Sarah but both died in the same year. And then my great grandad in 1888 or 1889 I think although finding anything about his birth is proving rather difficult. I know in the 1939 census it mentions his DOB as being 1889. If I could just find his birth records and his parents possible marriage records I think I’d be on a roll.
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby brendonavoo69 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:51 pm

With regards to the name Fox. I was speaking to my Dad yesterday and he mentioned that Thomas Sipthorpe born 1888 or 1889 my great grandad was originally called Fox but changed his surname to Sipthorpe because he fell out with the family. Which I have to say confused me even more.
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby Mick Loney » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:03 pm

brendonavoo69 wrote:With regards to the name Fox. I was speaking to my Dad yesterday and he mentioned that Thomas Sipthorpe born 1888 or 1889 my great grandad was originally called Fox but changed his surname to Sipthorpe because he fell out with the family. Which I have to say confused me even more.


That sounds suspiciously like he may be the illegitimate son of Sarah. Can you find a birth or christening for him under fox? If he was illegitimate, you should look for his parents marriage at a later date (if they ever married, that is). :D
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby sdup26 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:53 pm

If Thomas was surname Fox in 1888/9, when Sarah had been living with Thomas snr as his wife from the 1870's, then presumably your Thomas was the result of an affair. If you found his birth certificate, the column for his father's name may be blank, and you may not get any help from it, in terms of further research. But you never know your luck.
I tried the GRO site, from 1886-1890, and one birth that might be worth considering is Thomas Fox, June Q 1887, Hackney 1b 541, with no mother's surname given, which suggests illegitimacy.
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Re: Sarah Amelia Fox

Postby woodchal » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:29 pm

There is a tree on ancestry that has explored this family. I wandered through this tree, which has many citations and there is clearly many ways to say and transcribe this surname - eg Sipthorp, Ellithorpe, Silethorpe, Sibtherp, Sibthorp. Some are clearly Sipthorpe, badly transcribed others are actual variations but family members and profession confirm it as being the same people.

Sarah is Sarah Amelia on baptismal records for some of their children.

There is nothing to support Thomas Sipthorpe changing his name to Fox or illegitimacy, but for some reason the owner of the tree has given Thomas Henry Sipthorpe (husband of Sarah Amelia) the name Fox, although none of the cited records would support this.

So not withstanding the odd Fox question I suspect the missing records will be there somewhere just badly transcribed. If indeed they did actually marry!
Last edited by woodchal on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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