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Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Portsea)

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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:38 am

Thank you so much for all your hard work! I cannot thank you enough. I was thinking the same thing about Euphemia. I know that my great grandmother (Lillie) absolutely hated that name and would be very cross if you called her that. However, like you I had assumed it was a mother’s family name, especially as Lillie seems very much to be illegitimate. It is such a shame that we will never know the full stories of these people’s lives.

Once again thank you so much for all your hard work. It is very much appreciated.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby woodchal » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:44 pm

I had a quick look at this question and didn't have anything to add, but it would appear that Euphemia may well be a name in the Dickson family. Four examples with different vintages:-

1) THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 JULY, 1937 - Dickson, Euphemia Young, Sorting Telegraphist, Edinburgh.

2) Euphemia Dickson was born on 7 February 1891 at 80 Blackness Road, Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland; 1891

3) Euphemia Dickson, one of 170 convicts transported on the Tory, 17 March 1845

4) Euphemia Jane DICKSON born 13 Mar 1855, 7 Raeburn Place, Edinburgh, MLN, SCT
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby elsabels » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:44 pm

Maybe this will help......checking the TERRY family I found George Frederick & wife Rose living at 32 Hercules Street, in 1901 the address in the news item!

This looks like a shared property as immediatley above are Alice Carnell aged 31 born Porstmouth and son William aged 8, in the same household is Ellen ? aged 35 and a George Potter aged 70 a visitor
Exploring William b 1892, his RN record is on line at FMP produces this birth entry 30 April 1892

CARNELL, WILLIAM JAMES ANDREWS
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 446

1901 census
RG13; Piece: 979; Folio: 62; Page: 19

32 Hercules Street
Ellen Parpart 35 ( 1888 ELLEN ANDREWS married one of these people Walter Parfect,)
George Potter 70
Alice Carnall 31 1870 Portsmouth
Willie Carnall 8


George J Terry 28
Rose Terry 26
Frederick J Terry 1
Osca E Terry 1/12

1911
RG14; Piece: 5528; Schedule Number: 271
85 Byerley Road, Frotton, Kingston, Portsmouth
W A Carnell ( presume William Albert)
A Carnell 44 ( presume Alice)
W F Carnell 19 grocers ass Portsmouth William James agrees with other records
W T Carnell 8

1871 RG10; Piece: 1129; Folio: 117; Page: 44;
30 Winefield St ( Shared household?)
Robert Brown 62
Ester Brown 54
Mary Elizabeth Brown 23
Ellen Brown 16
John Brown 13

James Andrews 30 Portsmouth Stoker RN
Ellen Andrews 27
Ellen Andrews 7
Allice Andrews 4
sisters in 1901 census
Martha Andrews 1

Maybe Robert Dickson existed as a one night stand the job desc used may have been James Andrews!
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby elsabels » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re reading the news item, the Alice Carnell referred to is Alice nee Andrews

1939 William Albert b 2 Nov 1867 is still at 85 Byerley Road , Portsmouth C.B, desc as widower
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:06 am

Lillie was living at 70 or 10 Sultan Road, Landport when she married Thomas Alves and her witnesses were Henry Edward Colwill and Lilly Maude Goodenough. Married at registry office by licence in portsmouth.

Lillie’s birth certificate says Alice was living at 25 Arnaud Street, Buckland at the time of Lillie’s birth.

I am not sure if that helps in anyway?
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby elsabels » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:46 pm

If you look at a map of Landport you will find that all the addresses given are within easy walking distance of one another. When LEA married in 1919 she was living a mile away from the address her mother Alice Carnell was living at in 1911 and where William Albert Carnell is still at in 1939

The Portsea baptisms are on line at FMP.

St Mark, St Saviour's Mission Church and the Ascension
May CARNELL
B 24 Dec 1896
Bp 8 April 1897
Father William Carnell Stoker of RN of 8 Albion Street
Mother Alice

CARNELL, WALTER THOMAS ANDREWS
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in PORTSMOUTH Volume 02B Page 429

St Mark, St Saviour's Mission Church and the Ascension
Walter Thomas CARNELL
B 23 April 1903
Bp 8 May 1903
Father William Carnell Chief Stoker of RN of 24 Gladstone Street
Mother Alice

In 1939 Walter T was with his wife Gladys and 3 children? at Fareham. Walter died Sept 1975

William J CArnell is living in Fulham in 1939 died 1962 Liverpool

William A CARNEL
1901 England Census
Name
William Carnell
Birth
abt 1870 Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Residence
Malta Vessels Royal Navy England 1901

Name: William Albert Carnell
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 2 Nov 1867
Birth Place: Hastings, Sussex
First Service Date: 19 May 1887
First Ship Served On: Asia
Last Service Date: 26 May 1909
Last Ship Served On: Jupiter
Service Number: 141290

Looking at the record William A Carnell was on board the Nymphe in the period Oct 1892 - 2 April 1896 so couldn't be Lillie E A's father however the return date ties in with the birth of daughter May..........
On the 1911 census the declaration is 4 children born in the marriage 2 living...the 2 living appear to be the sons....May + one other child, it is not likely to be Lillie

Whilst you appear to have found Lillie EA birth mother, and I have no doubt that Alice nee Andrews Carnell is the mother, it may be impossible to find her birth father. It is not unusual on marriage to make up a name of a father and job title to hide illegigitmacy.
Whilst Robert DICKSON appears on the birth certificate, the child appears to have been 'put into the care of others' to look after her, yes it is that dark secret that someone in the family knows about,and it is tapping into the part of the family that knows......you could try contacting the CARNELL descendents
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:11 pm

elsabels wrote:It is not unusual on marriage to make up a name of a father and job title to hide illegigitmacy.

As I understood it, the birth certificate said that the father was Robert Dickson, Stoker R.N.
The marriage certificate of Lillie E (Alice) Dickson repeats those details, she didn't make them up.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:31 pm

Hi, yes that is correct. Which is why I think there was a Robert Dickson even if he wasn’t around long after the birth. I did read somewhere (and I don’t know if this is correct) but for a man’s name to be on a birth certificate in the 1894 the man had to agree that the child was his. Does anyone know if this was correct? I would have also though that if Lillie was baptised shortly after her birth she would be baptised with the same name she had on her civil birth register.

Once again though thank you for all the help.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby elsabels » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:30 pm

I understand what you are saying, the info is likely to be the same as the birth cert if LEA had access to that. As far as I am aware it was not a pre requisite for the father to attend the birth registration process, the couple were not married and it is likely the child was passed to others fairly soon after its birth. William Carnell returned home on 2 April 1896 (Violet) May Carnell was born 24 Dec 1896, no need for counting on those dates!

In a nutshell you need to find a Robert Dickson record that suggests that he was in Portsmouth circa Oct /Nov 1893 I cannot see on line a baptismal record

Lillie EA was b 28 July 1894, Robert Dickson would need to be in port around the end of October 1893!
Alice's husband returned 2 April 1896 so Alice may have had the child with her in the period July 1894 - April 1896, but then there was a small boy who may have let the info slip that mother had had a sister???

In 1891 Alice was living at no1 Hercules Street we know by 1901 she was still in Hercules Street 1911 Byerley St

Why not post a copy of the birth cert!
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:00 am

elsabels wrote:In a nutshell you need to find a Robert Dickson record that suggests that he was in Portsmouth circa Oct/Nov 1893 I cannot see on line a baptismal record


Alice Carnell was baptized in 1901 when the Offord's baptized their daughter Lilian May (as I have already mentioned, along with much else). I am taking it that this was Lillie Euphemia Alice minus the first two names!

If you read the thread, we do have a Robert Dickson who seems to have in Portsmouth at the relevant time, and his mother was called Euphemia.
Since, according to his navy record, that chap was on the "Resolution" circa 1901 census time, then he probably appears in that census as 25 years old born Portsea (should be 27 born Tweedmouth!)
He had actually been previously stationed Victory 1 in the early 1890s, and indeed was again in 1898!

On the birth certificate
Presuming the mother was the informant, she was bluffing it out - being extremely economical with the truth. She didn't have to prove to the registrar she was married to Robert Dickson, but she must have been nervous.
Indeed, re that occupation difference for Robert - she may even have blurted out Stoker due to nerves!
But I don't want to go on too much about that chap, because he may not be the father of LEA, it's a possibility only.
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