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Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Portsea)

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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:51 pm

Thank you. That is really helpful.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:52 pm

Thank you. That is really helpful.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:53 pm

ianbee wrote:an oddity
there is an adopted child (of William?), Alice Cornell, 6, born Portsmouth!

The question is whether this Alice is the same girl (Alice Dixon, 16) who is with Thomas + Harriet Offord in 1911.
The name might perhaps be Carnell (even if not always in the census returns!)
There is no birth registration of an Alice Carnell or Cornell in Portsea at the appropriate time. Even with Alice as a second name.

There is a marriage in Portsea in 1890 of a William Albert Carnell and Alice Andrews. Something of a coincidence!
William Carnell seems to be away a lot. There is a possible gap in births registered in Portsea of Carnell, mmn Andrews, in the mid 1890s. In that gap appears the one(?) Dickson - Andrews birth.
Could Alice have strayed with a Mr Dickson whilst her husband was absent, and had a child by him? Could this child (if there was one!) have been quickly given up for adoption?
It could perhaps explain Alice Cornell/Dixon.
Completely mad idea of course!
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:33 am

Thank you.

I have a birth certificate which states that Lillie is Dickson and Alice is calling herself Dickson and the father is Robert Dickson. Would Alice have said her surname is Dickson so as to not appear to have an illegitimate child? I do think that the Alice who is the Adopted daughter in the 1911 census could be the correct Alice (Lillie) as she was a piece worker who put bone in corsets. As there is no formal adoption until 1927, I wonder who the adopted family was in relationship to the mother? All very mysterious! My dad told me that lillie did know who her mother was she had a falling out with her and wouldn’t even visit her on her death bed.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:04 am

Hi
Yes, I do think that there may have been some adjustment of the facts on Lillie's certificate to hide the true circumstances of her birth.
There's a kind of double baptism at St Mark, North End, Portsmouth, 15th January 1901
Firstly
Alice, parent Alice Cornell, abode 44 Derby Road, no father or occupation
next entry
Lilian Mary, parents Thomas + Harriet Offord, 44 Derby Road, Father Seaman R.N.

There are some dates of birth in this register but, annoyingly, none for those two!
Some school records for Portsmouth might help with that. So we are still in the realms of speculation!

William Albert Cornell married Alice Andrews, 6 April 1890, at St Luke, Southsea.
He was a Seaman R.N. The name of his father Thomas seems to be spelt Carnell, and the groom has signed Carnell! Alice was 22, father James Andrews.
Baptisms of a couple of their children have William as a Stoker.

1891 census - Alice Carnell, 23, at 1 Hercules Street (indexed as Alice Crouch on ancestry, another mix up by them!)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:43CS-N3Z
Just before that, it might be her featuring in a sad story in the Portsmouth Evening News
Ian
Attachments
Portsmouth Evening News 21 March 1891.JPG
Portsmouth Evening News 21 March 1891.JPG (50.45 KiB) Viewed 899 times
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 pm

Eleanorsamwellchow wrote:I wonder who the adopted family was in relationship to the mother?

One interesting thing is that a brother of Mrs Offord (nee Terry) is at the same address (32 Hercules Street) as Alice Carnell in 1901 - George F Terry, 28, born Westbourne, Sussex, married to Rose.
So they must have been in contact!
George Frederick Terry - Rose Lafount, 21 January 1897, Portsea, his address being 44 Derby Road.
The baptism of a daughter Rose Ellen in 1905 has his names switched around to Frederick George.

The navy record of William Albert Carnell is on ancestry. It shows that he had a long period of service on HMS Nymphe, 7 Oct 1892 to 2 April 1896. Don't know the whereabouts of the Nymphe during all that time!
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:08 pm

I think we might be able to identify a possible Robert Dickson! He was in the Royal Navy, but he was not a stoker.
May depend on whether I've understood things correctly.
AdrianB38 wrote:Key learning point 1 - the column for "Ship etc" often contains as many etceteras as real, floating ships. Sometimes the "etc" is a Shore base (aka "Stone Frigate"), sometimes it's an accounting base, which may or may not be quite the same thing.


Alice may have given the role of her (real) husband in the Navy - Stoker - on the birth certificate, rather than identify Robert too closely?
What do you think?
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby Eleanorsamwellchow » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:56 pm

Thank you very much. It is certaintly interesting. I do think the Alice Cornell is the same Alice Dixon in the 1911. I wonder why they changed her surname. Thank you so much for your help.
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:51 pm

Hi
It's just a possibility (the identity of Robert, I mean)
I'd presumed the names chosen for LEA (for short!) would all be to do with the mother Alice, her choice. Especially if Lillie was the result of an affair, perhaps with a stoker in the Royal Navy who wouldn't have been around very long.
But!
Euphemia is an interesting name, it couldn't have been very common.
Looking for any Robert Dickson (or Dixon) connected to the name, only one leaps out, in England at least, the chap born in 1873 in Tweedmouth to Robert Laing Dickson and his wife Euphemia nee Briggs. The father was a farmer/dairyman/provision merchant (but farm servant in 1911!). They do spell their name as Dickson.
Robert junior is at home in 1881, but not thereafter. His death though is announced in the Berwickshire News of 19 Sep 1911 (he died in Glasgow, 11 September, age 37)

Where was he in between, could he have been in the navy? Answer, yes.
Navy record is on ancestry.
Dickson, Robert
Official Number: 148745
Place of Birth: Ordmains Tweedmouth, Northumberland
Date of Birth: 18 December 1873
ADM 188/212/148745
Date: [1889]

Could he have been in Portsmouth at the relevant time? Answer, I think so.
Hopefully he was there between at least May 1893 and October 1894 on Victory (or Victory 1?) a shore base or something similar in Portsmouth (if only Adrian was here!).
But he was not a stoker. It is though another big coincidence! He would still have been around for a while after the birth of Lillie Euphemia Alice.
He might even be the chap (aged 20) in the Portsmouth Evening News of 20 August 1894. Had too much to drink. But I'm really not sure.
It is of course a common name, and no proof at all that this Robert is LEA's father. It will just have to remain entertaining speculation!
Ian
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Re: Lillie Euphemia Alice Dickson (born 28 July 1894 in Port

Postby ianbee » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:19 pm

Just to make sure that is the correct Robert Dickson in the navy!
Marriage announcement, Morpeth Herald, 3 August 1872
At St. Mary's Church, Wooler, 26th ult., Mr. Robert L. Dickson, of Orde Mains, to Euphemia, second daughter of Mr. John Briggs, Wooler.
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