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Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian era)

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Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian era)

Postby Elizabeth Nield » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:46 pm

What I know: My paternal great-grandmother, Emily Sophia Black, was the daughter of the former Elizabeth Manning. Born in Peterborough, County of Northampton, 26th September 1886 registered 4th November 1886.

Elizabeth, her mother, claims Emily's father's name is "Thomas Black", a "joiner journeyman". However, my previous research shows Elizabeth was married to a Gustave Felix Black (a hairdresser, formerly of Le Havre, France) who seems to have died in an asylum in 1880. They had two children together, Felix William Black and Blanche Rosella Black.

Emily was born 6 years later.

In 1881 Elizabeth lists herself as a widow living with her parents, and in 1891 she is "Elizabeth Smith" living with Thomas Smith, and her two older children, as a lodger in the house of Richard and Emma Marriot. Emily, who should be 4 or 5, is not with them. In 1901, Elizabeth is widowed again, living with her four children (now Sophia Smith and Florence Smith have been added) in Leicestershire.

In 1901, Emily Black is at the Stockport, Cheshire Certified Industrial School for Girls, age 14. I'm assuming this has to be her, but there's no record of her in 1891 anywhere that I could find on Ancestry (admittedly, I'm not very good at this). And in 1909 she married my great-grandfather Robert Nield in Cheshire, having my grandfather Francis Nield a year later. In 1911 they're together with Robert's parents and siblings on the census.

(On her marriage certificate, Emily calls her father "WILLIAM Black, carpenter, deceased")


So that's all I do know. What I want to know is:
Who is Thomas Black, and was he ever married to Elizabeth Manning? Who is William Black? Neither of these names are connected with Elizabeth on the census (the only William Black is Felix, who seems to have gone by his middle name later)

Why was Emily never listed with her mother on any census? Was she taken away from her mother, abandoned, given up...

Why was Emily in the Industrial School, when did she get sent there and leave, and what was life like there for her? What would she have done after? How would she have met her husband?

I suppose there may not be answers to some of these questions, but I'm interested in finding out what I can.

Thank you,

Elizabeth Nield
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby elsabels » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:00 am

1911 Emily is with husband Robert Nield at Moor End Farm Woodford ( now Moor End Driving Range) about 3.5 miles from Dialstone Lane

1901 RG13 3297 131 37
Certified Industrial School for Girls, Dialstone Lane Stockport ( now a hotel)

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/StockportGirlsIS/

1891
RG12; Piece: 1227; Folio: 54; Page: 33
Ebenezer Cottage Cavendish Street Peterboro'
Frederick Grocock 36
Elizabeth Grocock 34
Sydney Smith 8 nephew b Peterboro'
Emily Smith 5 niece b Peterboro'
William Popp 8
Caroline Gaunt 23
Daisy Gaunt 5

Smith children are not necessarily siblings

Gustav Felix BLACK b 1842 Havre
1871 RG10; Piece: 928; Folio: 53; Page: 14 Tunbridge Wells Kent

13 July 1875 married St Mary Peterboro' marriage cert on line
admitted to Asylum Birmingham 11 October 1878
died 11 October 1880
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby Elizabeth Nield » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:56 am

elsabels wrote:1911 Emily is with husband Robert Nield at Moor End Farm Woodford ( now Moor End Driving Range) about 3.5 miles from Dialstone Lane

1901 RG13 3297 131 37
Certified Industrial School for Girls, Dialstone Lane Stockport ( now a hotel)

1891
RG12; Piece: 1227; Folio: 54; Page: 33
Ebenezer Cottage Cavendish Street Peterboro'
Frederick Grocock 36
Elizabeth Grocock 34
Sydney Smith 8 nephew b Peterboro'
Emily Smith 5 niece b Peterboro'
William Popp 8
Caroline Gaunt 23
Daisy Gaunt 5

Smith children are not necessarily siblings

Gustav Felix BLACK b 1842 Havre
1871 RG10; Piece: 928; Folio: 53; Page: 14 Tunbridge Wells Kent

13 July 1875 married St Mary Peterboro' marriage cert on line
admitted to Asylum Birmingham 11 October 1878
died 11 October 1880


Thank you for looking that up :)

I'm not sure that particular Emily Smith is her. The 1901 census shows an Emily Smith, daughter of William and Sarah Smith (not Thomas and Elizabeth), and in 1911 an Emily Smith is visiting with her in-laws, when Emily Nield nee Black was married and living with her in-laws at Moor End Farm. I am wondering whether Thomas Smith might have been Emily's father, but before he and Elizabeth got married (if they did). The number of different first names for Emily's father is making it difficult to figure out, though "Black" is consistently her surname. (Why might that be, since Gustave was already dead?)

I'm also curious to know why Gustave Felix Black was admitted to the Asylum and why he died there, though I'm sure that counts as a separate query.
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby elsabels » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:43 am

This link explains why it is likely Emily was in the Certified Industrial school for Girls and possibly how she came to know Robert Nield

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/IS/

I agree Emily Smith above is not the correct person, however I cannot find one that fits the name/ birth details

If Emily was a bit wayward, have you looked in the news to see if she is mentioned?
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby Elizabeth Nield » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:19 pm

elsabels wrote:This link explains why it is likely Emily was in the Certified Industrial school for Girls and possibly how she came to know Robert Nield

I agree Emily Smith above is not the correct person, however I cannot find one that fits the name/ birth details

If Emily was a bit wayward, have you looked in the news to see if she is mentioned?


Sadly I am in California and have no access to British news. Emily's grandson, my father Ronald, was born in New York and so I'm slightly removed from my British roots. So I wouldn't know where or how to look. But if someone is able to that would be very helpful. (Thank you for the link, I'm sorry I have to keep removing links from quoted text but it keeps saying they look like spam :( )

Do you mean she might have been sent to work for Robert's family?
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby JMcK » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:17 am

the British Newspaper archive is here https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
and can also be accessed via a FIND MY PAST membership

I've had a quick look, but nothing has leapt out, sorry
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby ianbee » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:37 am

Brother Felix was sent to prison. I'm sure that Elizabeth knows this already.
Leicester Chronicle, 12 Dec 1896
Borough Police Court
Shop Thieves. — Felix William Black (20), alias William Smith, of Grosvenor-street, was charged with stealing from a rail outside a shop in Sanvey-gate, a pair of trousers, value 6s., the property of Joseph Hy. Shaw, on the 7th inst. — The evidence showed that the articles were missed from the shop, and were afterwards pawned by prisoner, under the name of Wm. Smith. When arrested by Detective-Constable Beamish, he admitted that he took them. — He was sent to prison for two months. — There was another charge of larceny against the accused, but it was not proceeded with.
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby ianbee » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:11 am

Blanche was in slight trouble in Leicester in June 1899
Young people summoned for damaging mowing grass on enclosed land....
Frederick Collins (22), shoe hand, Corah-street, and Blanche Black (21), shoe hand, Green-street, pleaded guilty to a like offence, on the same date, and they were each fined 2s. 6d., and ordered to pay the damage, 1s. each.
1901census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS4J-F82

Where in 1891 was Sophia/Sophy Smith (mmn Manning) b Peterborough 1889?

An Emily Smith, Leicester girl, sent to industrial school in November 1897 for pocket picking. But she was only 9 years old (two out).
No sign in Leicester!
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby elsabels » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:07 am

An Emily Smith, Leicester girl, sent to industrial school in November 1897 for pocket picking. But she was only 9 years old (two out).


I think that is likely to be the correct Emily Sophia Black/ Smith
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Re: Emily Sophia Black - parentage & childhood (Victorian er

Postby sdup26 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:08 pm

If Gustave Black was admitted to Birmingham Asylum in 1878, and died there in 1880, who was the father of Blanche Black, b1880 in Manchester?

In 1891, Elizabeth is with Thomas Smith, and her children Blanche and Felix Black. Sophia Smith appears on the 1901 census with a birth year of 1889 - where was she in 1891?
(Sorry, Ian has already asked this!)
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