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Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

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Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby Millfield64 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:52 am

When our great grandfather passed away, our great grandmother said she could not claim his pension as his wife would be claiming it! This was a shock to the family as they always thought she was his one and only wife (she was called Mary Ellen (Taylor)). Turns out, they weren't actually married and he had obviously been married before. I would like to try and find out who claimed that pension as I have not been able to find a marriage for my great grandfather. If anyone can shed some light as to how I might go about this, I would be eternally grateful and happy to help with any research you might have in return. I have a feeling there are no records available as regards the pension side of things and seem to be unable to find a marriage.

My great grandfather's details were:

George Robert Evans 1878 - 1950. Hull, East Yorks.

With thanks
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby AntonyM » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:21 pm

At that time it would have been the Hull City Police, which later became part of Humberside Constabulary.

Their archives seem to be held by the East Riding of Yorkshire Archives (http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/leisure/a ... catalogue/).

If they have discharge/pension records, they would normally name his wife.
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby Mick Loney » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:21 pm

If you know the names of ‘their’ children, try searching the new GRO index, which shows mothers maiden name up to 1916. I’ve seen a tree on Ancestry (yours?), which shows him with Mary Ellen and a son Charley Henry, but there is not an entry for him under the surname Evans, born in Hull area in the GRO. Try looking for him under mothers surname, and if he is there, it should show no mothers maiden namee present, indicating his parents weren’t married. When I get a spare minute, I’ll have another look.
Another thing to look for is a WW1 service record for him, where it should list whether he was married and to who, along with any children they have! There is of course no guarantee he will tell them of his real wife, as he also had to tell them where and when they married, so doubtful if he was brazen enough to tell them Mary Ellen was his wife, but stranger things have happened
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Pensonher

Postby Mick Loney » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:23 pm

Following on from my previous post, I looked for the births of the children that are shown on the 1911 census. Whilst the ones I found were registered with surname Evans, there seems to be differences seen for mothers maiden name.

Whilst some show Taylor, others show Cooper, which begs the question was Mary Ellen also married to someone else before moving in with George? When I’ve come across this situtuation before, the mother sometimes used her previous married name and sometimes her true maiden name when registering her children.

I found no military records on Ancestry, the only site I have a subscription for.

I did find a potential mariage for George Robert in 1894 in Driffield to Alice Barmby, but struck out when Alice and her George Robert were found together in 1901 in Driffield!
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby elsabels » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:51 pm

According to the 1939 Register MARY ELLEN was born 31 Dec 1877, therefor her birth registration will be in the Jan - Mar 1878 period

Searching freebmd.org with the forenames / Jan -Mar 1878 Hull & Sculcoates produces the following

COOK Mary Ellen Hull 9d 247

Gibbons Mary Ellen Hull 9d 258

Gilroy Mary Ellen Hull 9d 291

Halters Mary Ellen Hull 9d 266


Gordon Mary Ellen Sculcoates 9d 202

GREEN Mary Ellen Sculcoates 9d 167

HILL Mary Ellen Sculcoates 9d 182

None has the surname of TAYLOR/ COOPER

Looking at the children listed in the 1911 census, they seem to have a mixture of mothers maiden name Taylor / Cooper
EVANS, PHYLLIS mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1909 S Quarter in HULL Volume 09D Page 302
EVANS, ALICE mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in HULL Volume 09D Page 271
EVANS, ELEANOR MAY mmmn TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in HULL Volume 09D Page 329
EVANS, VIOLET MAY ISON mmn TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in SOLIHULL Volume 06D Page 601

Robert b 1908 has mmn COOPER

Using the same pronciple in searching for the older boys and under the East Riding of Yorks. nothing stands out to be these 2
George Robert states dob 21 March 1903
Charley Henry on his attestation papers states he was 17 y 10 m (17 330 days on 9 April 1917) on 2 Jan 1917 which gives approx birth Jan - July 1899
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby elsabels » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:22 pm

I cannot find a marriage entry for this couple, nor can I find a marriage to an other for George.

Have you thought that Mary E didnot qualify for a police pension as she and George R were not married, his employer classing him as a single person. His employment may not have been pensionable.
In 1906 he was a dining car attendant for a railway company and a member of the Amalgamated Soc of Railway Employees.
Ancestry has railway records on line, he was probably with the Great Central Rail Co
His death certificate may state his marital status

With regard to the children maybe you need to select 2 certificates ( .pdf are slightly cheaper) one with Cooper the other with Taylor
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby Mick Loney » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:27 am

Elsabels,
Word of warning regards DOB on 1939 register. I have seen many instances where this has been proven to be categorically wrong, often out by a year or two, matching neither GRO nor previous censuses. Whether this was deliberate or a genuine mistake we’ll never know.
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby elsabels » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:15 am

Point taken.....At least it is a benchmark for starting with, certificates etc are only as good as the informant knows and gives the info. In this instance it is looking as if porkies were told!

My late mother, we always thought was born 1923 until it came time to register her death at the hospital when we were informed her year of birth was 1920!
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Re: Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby Millfield64 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:21 am

Many thanks to you all for your kind assistance. I had already come across the fact that some of Mary Ellen and George's children had different maiden names given for birth mother. I also found the marriage in Driffield but subsequent census records, crossed this one out. Unfortunately, we do not know anything of Mary Ellen's past to try and track her down so I'm thinking this is going to be a complete brick wall for me. I find it extremely odd that a Policeman should not be truthful about his marital status on documents, which I assume must have had some legalities attached to them....I guess we will never know and Mary Ellen will continue to be illusive. Thank you to you all for putting in the time and effort to help me, much appreciated. Happy researching all.
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Hull Constabulary - Police Penson

Postby coopernicola » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:47 am

Have you ordered any of the birth certificates for the children? I have a similar family situation in my tree (also in Hull!). I purchased birth certificates and found that the first 2 children were registered by their father, but with MMN as surname. The younger children also registered by their father with his surname, but their mother just has her maiden name on the certificates. I know the couple never married, the father lived with his legal wife when their first 2 children were born (she also had 2 children born at this time!). He left his legal wife and spent the rest of his life with his second partner. His legal wife outlived him. Interestingly not only were his family were quite accepting of the situation, his second partner brought up all the children (9 in total) except the youngest born to his legal wife!
N.B. The two older children used their fathers name when they married.
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