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Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

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Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:16 pm

I've got the parish register showing the banns for my great grandparents John Lucas and Ellen Obart (also known as Nellie Hobart Titford, Ellen Titford). These were read 16th, 23rd and 30th May 1915 at St James church, Holloway/Islington.

It says in the margin 'married' but I can't find details of the actual marriage. If they are the right people, they'd actually been living as a married couple since 1892 and up until finding the banns, I didn't think they'd got married, so any help is tracking down the actual event, would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby peter kent » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:16 pm

Looks like they changed their minds.
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby woodchal » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:28 pm

You must have your banns read out in church for three Sundays during the three months before the wedding. This is usually done over three consecutive Sundays but does not have to be. Banns need to be read in the parish where each of the couple live as well as the church in which they are to be married, if that is somewhere else.

Other couples on the same page as your couple did get married at that church in the weeks immediately after the banns were read, but there is no entry in the church register for your couple.

So either they changed their minds and the "married" addition is incorrect or they married somewhere else (where the banns should also have been read)
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Why would it say married on the edge of the bans if it didn’t happen? It is possible they didn’t go through with it but they stayed together until they died in 1941/2.

They had 3 daughters & are listed everywhere as married ... apart from John’s army discharge papers where he’s shown as single but next of kin is ‘friend Nelly Titford’. This is why I got excited to find the banns - thought i’d found a missing bit of info
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:33 pm

woodchal wrote:You must have your banns read out in church for three Sundays during the three months before the wedding. This is usually done over three consecutive Sundays but does not have to be. Banns need to be read in the parish where each of the couple live as well as the church in which they are to be married, if that is somewhere else.

Other couples on the same page as your couple did get married at that church in the weeks immediately after the banns were read, but there is no entry in the church register for your couple.

So either they changed their minds and the "married" addition is incorrect or they married somewhere else (where the banns should also have been read)


They were both from the parish where the banns were read & I would have thought any marriage would be in the same place as the church was spitting distance from where they lived

I will check out the other couples as I haven’t done that
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby woodchal » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:29 pm

I am looking at a tree on ancestry that I suspect is yours.

The 1911 census seems to have him as George Lucas and that they had been married for 24 years, which would make 1887 for the marriage(or getting together), which would tie in for the date of the first born child.

However the George/John; banns/no marriage and the Titford/Obart/Hobart would suggest that the this some obfuscation going on here
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:08 pm

There was definitely something going on with the names. As you may have seen, Nelly used different versions of her name throughout her life & her eldest daughter (not Johns daughter I’ll add) also used different names. Apart from the 1911 census, John was always John

I beginning to think they had the banns read but didn’t go any further
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby Jenaheldd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Found the parish registers for marriages & 3 couples who had their banns read before & 3 after John & Ellen all got married, but no sign of my couple
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby JMcK » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:37 pm

As the banns were read in 1915 I wonder if it was the fact he was filling out his attestation papers that made them think they should legalise things. Then someone must have said "oh you don't need to be married' you can put anyone's name down as Next of Kin"

Or - perhaps they planned to marry but he was called away so they didn't actually get around to it.
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Re: Missing marriage : Lucas & Obart

Postby woodchal » Tue May 01, 2018 3:27 pm

You say "They had 3 daughters & are listed everywhere as married ... apart from John’s army discharge papers where he’s shown as single but next of kin is ‘friend Nelly Titford’"

What is the date of the discharge papers - if its after the "non-wedding" I think you already have your answer.

The unmarried father can be named on the birth certificate (if they are present at the registration). From the GRO all 4 children have the father(s) named, though the maiden name given by Nelly varies.
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