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Which Mary?

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Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:17 pm

Joseph and Mary Bird had;
Betsy 1816 Birmingham
Ann 1819 Birmingham
George 1820 Birmingham
Caroline 1824 Birmingham
Sarah 1826 Birmingham
Mary 1828 Birmingham
Joseph was an Ivory Turner son of John and Betty Bird baptised 28 Nov 1791 St Phillip's Birmingham
Who was Mary? And where did they marry?
She was not Mary Ann RAY her Joseph was a wire drawer and she was always Mary Ann “MY” Mary was always simply Mary and Joseph always an Ivory or bone turner. Mary was born 1786 possibly in Great Barr Staffordshire
Can anyone help me find the right Mary please
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby KayFarndon » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:25 am

Have you looked for a death of Joseph Bird? I have just put Joseph into FreeBMD using Warwickshire, as that is the county I think Birmingham would have been in then and that is where you have the children born. The first death is Birmingham September 1837 and it would make Joseph aged 46. There are many more listed for that area.

This could be a long hard slog for you, but if you were to apply for the death certificates it might give you more clues. It will give an address and informant of the death.

I have said this before, so apologies to those who are aware of it. If you give full details of Joseph, his baptism date, his occupation and also list the people who might have been the informant of the death, but do stress that the occupation is important and if it is not listed as that particular Joseph's occupation, then that will not be the correct certificate.

Most registrars are sympathetic to family history researchers and will not send incorrect certificates if you have given specific details. In this case it will be his occupation, but each time you must send the fee, which will be returned each time if your details do not match the certificates.

Have you found the family on the 1841 census? It might possibly show a change of occupation for Joseph and will give the address at that time, which might be out of the area where the children were born.

Happy hunting.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:00 pm

oh dear its far from easy. There are so many Joseph BIRDs in the area it has been a nightmare attempting to sort them out, for example; The Joseph you mention who died in 1837 was only 21 (GRO Index)
I know that Mary Bird with 4 of her children was living at Brickiln ST Birmingham in 1841
HO107/1143/ 9 fo45 p15
I can't find a Brickiln St in Birmingham (there is one in BROWNHILLS) only a BRIKILN Lane is that the same place?
There is no sign of her husband so I assume he has died. Their last child was born in 1828
There are these two burials for Joseph Bird
St MARTIN in BIRMINGHAM in the County of Warwick in April in the Year 1828
604 Joseph BIRD Loveday Street 18th 66years J Moore

St Philip Birmingham Warwick in the Year 1839
981 Joseph BIRD John Street 29th May 48 years C Arnold
(Buried at St Barthws Chapel) <St Bartholomew’s Chapel>

The question is if they were living in 1822 New John St and Bicklin St in 1840 which of these burials is most likely? Joseph could have died anytime between 1828-1841 The last three children were all baptised together in 1840 but there is no mention that their father was dead. Why weren't they baptised before? The older children were baptised as they came along?

Mary was buried at Saints Peter and Paul Aston near Birmingham in the Year 1861
1783 Mary Widow of Joseph BIRD Aston New Town May12th 74years By W G Morton Curate

If Joseph is the one who died in 1839 Ithink he would be the son ofJoseph & Betty BIRD in 1791 and that leads into another problem as I can't find a marriage for that couple either! But the one who died in 1828 seems too old to be Mary's husband as she was born 1786 but the younger one my be too young being 5 years younger than Mary
Last edited by nuttree on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:31 pm

Oooh looking at the GRO index there was another possible death this one in 1838 in Aston age 52 exactly the same birth year as MARY i'll order the PDF I had previously gone on Burial records from AN..TRY Thank you for making me look again surelt this is going to be interesting.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby ianbee » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:47 pm

nuttree wrote:I had previously gone on Burial records from AN..TRY

That one is on ancestry. Joseph Bird, buried at Sutton Coldfield, 25 Nov 1838. Age 52.
Abode "near Penns". Mary Ann Bird, 40, and family living Penns in 1841. John Bird, 20, is a Wire Drawer.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:12 pm

OH NO! I didn't think Sutton Coldfield was Aston Union I know that Joseph was the one married to Mary Ann Ray he keeps getting in the way she is always known as Mary ANN mine was a bone/pearl/ivory turner so it looks like mine is the older chap who died in 1828 LOVEDAY Street is very close to Brickiln St. I need to find a Joseph baptised about 1766 Still no idea who Mary was either???? THE CHASE IS ON
Last edited by nuttree on Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby KayFarndon » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Definitely Brick Kiln Lane.
Often children were baptised together, particularly if they were born close together and it would not say whether either parent was in attendance.
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:39 pm

The three I have baptised together were born 1824 1826 and 1828 and were baptised 1840! and the baptisms are abode Brickiln STREET as on the 1841 census HO107/1143/ 9 fo45 p15
Brickiln Street is shown on an old map off Lancaster Street opposit LENCH road parallel with York Street , Vesey Street joins t Lancaster Street just above Lench Street. Today it looks like it is under the junction ofthe A4400 and B4114 Newtown Row While Brickiln LANE runs parallel with Aldridge Rd in the Great BARR area
I take your point baptism records don't usually say if a parent was absent but I have seen son or daughter of widow x before now
The Joseph from Loveday St was 24 years older than Mary the one from John St is 5 Years younger than her, I have no problem with that being 6 years my husband's senior I Just want to get the tree right
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Re: Which Mary?

Postby nuttree » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 pm

The death certificate for Joseph 1838 was as we feared the wiredrawer from Sutton Coldfield the informant was John ray and Mary Ann Ray had a brother John so that rounds the other family off nicely but leaves me with the problem of who My Joseph and Mary were.
I can see three possible marriages all a bit early
Joseph Bird to Mary Stevens 7 Nov 1805 St Martin,
Joseph Bird to Mary BRIGGS 28 Jul 1806 St Philip
Joseph Bird to Mary Allin, 14 Oct 1810, St Peter Harborne there was a Mary Allin baptised in Harborne in 1783 our Mary was born 1786 is this too far out? This would be good if John born 1811 is in our family
That still leaves the question why the gap in children 1811-1816 and in the first two cases why no children untill 1811?

Mary from her death and three censuses should be born about 1786 so would have been 19 at the time of that first marriage no problem there but if JOSEPH was the one buried in St Bartholomew's chapel in 1839 age 48 he cant have married either of the first two Marys and would only have been 19 if he married Mary ALLIN
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