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No birth record

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No birth record

Postby Tobina » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:20 am

I am trying to find the birth of Joseph Thomas Bryan. On the 1911 census he states that he was born in Bedford in 1862. I have searched Ancestry, Findmypast, GRO, Free BMD & Family search but not found him. I’ve also used wild card searches & just Joseph, Thomas & Bryan. I know he lived in Plymouth in 1901 & 1911 and died there in 1912. Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: No birth record

Postby JMcK » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:53 am

You probably know this but, at his marriage jan 1 1895 he was Sergeant Instructor of Musketry for the Bedfordshire regiment. Western Daily Mercury, Plymouth, 02 Jan 1895
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Re: No birth record

Postby Tobina » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Thanks for the info, he was on the 1901 census with the same occupation, was the marriage published in the Bedfordshire newspapers? That’s one place I haven’t checked.
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Re: No birth record

Postby brunes08 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:31 pm

There is the possibility that the birth wasn't registered. Although it was compulsory to register a birth, it wasn't until 1874 that penalties were put in place for not doing so. It is also possible that a birth registration was made some time after the event or the infant not named. My 2x gt grandparents' first two children were registered but no names given at the time - only entered as 'male child' each time.
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Re: No birth record

Postby Tobina » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:54 pm

Thanks for the reply. Also I haven’t found him on any census before 1901.
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Re: No birth record

Postby JMcK » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:57 pm

was the marriage published in the Bedfordshire newspapers? That’s one place I haven’t checked.


Western Daily Mercury, Plymouth 02 Jan 1895

The piece names Ellen’s father (Samuel Cottle) but not Joseph’s. Have you the marriage cert? What name does he give for his father?

full name of children are Samuel Joseph Ernest
And Susie Theresa

Is there any clue there?

I’ve only my iPad at ptresent which is hopeless for searching The Gazette, but might there be an appointment for him listed there,

Where were the Bedfordshire’s in 1891? And I suppose conceivably he was in the reg in 1881. But I don’t see him in 1871 either.
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Re: No birth record

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:32 pm

JMcK wrote:... Sergeant Instructor of Musketry for the Bedfordshire regiment. ...

I would say "follow the clues" but I don't know that you already knew this...

So - there are 2 things here. Firstly he was in the Army - and probably for some time, given that he was a Sergeant Instructor. Given that he survived the Army, that means that there's a good chance that his papers will survive in FindMyPast.

Secondly, if he was overseas at the time of a census, then he won't be in the earlier UK censuses as they didn't cover the Army abroad.

To deal with the latter first just for completeness, FindMyPast have British Army, Worldwide Index 1841 British Army, Worldwide Index 1851 British Army, Worldwide Index 1861 and British Army, Worldwide Index 1871 - these are taken from the Army's Muster Books & Pay Lists and are the best possible attempt at a census substitute. However, these don't seem relevant to your chap and I mention them only for completeness.

Going to look for his Army records - as he left before WW1, we need to look at FindMyPast Military, armed forces & conflict. I searched for "Joseph Thomas" (with variations) "Bryan" (I started without variations) and Regiment "Bed*" - regimental names in FMP are a bit funny to search on - in any case the Army was not consistent either, so use a wild card * immediately after "Bed" (no intervening space) to pick up "Beds", "Bedfordshire", etc. And we have...

First name(s) Joseph
Last name Bryan
Birth year -
Service number 2965
Rank COLOUR SERGEANT
Regiment Bedfordshire Regiment
Year -
Attestation age years 47
Attestation age months 3
Discharge corps Bedfordshire Regiment
Discharge service number 2965
Document type Discharge
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 4441
Box record number 178
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict


Page your way through all that lot and you'll find that he was "Home" (i.e. in the UK) for the 1881 (but this could be in Ireland, whose 1881 census went up in flames), in the "East Indies" (i.e. India etc) for the 1891 census, "Home" for the 1901. He only just made that, as he was "South Africa" Feb 1902 to July 1902. This is on his Military History Sheet. Written just below that lot so that I missed it first time, you have "Next of Kin - Father: Edward, Mother: Mary, Wife: Ellen".

And what I'm after, of course(?), is his Attestation Form where he signed up and wrote
Born ... near the town of Belgeum in the County of India"

NB - he's a Roman Catholic as well, it seems, which must have implications if looking for a baptism...

I have not looked further, but it would seem that a visit to https://www.fibis.org/ would be in order for you...
Adrian
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Re: No birth record

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:38 pm

"Belgeum" may be "Belgaum"??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgaum
Adrian
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Re: No birth record

Postby AdrianB38 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:49 pm

Yes - Belgaum it is.... Because you should go to FindMyPast, bring up the search screen for the British "Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records", then set "Where" to the "Overseas / Unknown" under "Britain". Now search for Joseph Bryan born 1861 +/- 2y ... When I did it, I got 3 returns for him, including

First name(s) Joseph
Last name Bryan
Sex Male
Birth year 1861
Place Belgaum
Country India
Type Armed Forces
Regiment 26th Foot
Archive General Register Office
Source Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
Record's year range 1861
Volume 1249
Page 76
Line number 75
Archive reference REG1
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms


First name(s) Joseph
Last name Bryan
Birth year 1861
Birth date 24 Sep 1861
Baptism year 1861
Baptism date 6 Oct 1861
Place Bombay
Presidency Bombay
Father's first name(s) Edward
Father's last name Bryan
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name -
Archive reference N-3-35
Folio 285
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bombay, 1709-1948


So that is a Protestant baptism (despite his later religion), in Belgaum to Edward & Mary, with Edward being a Private in the 83rd Regiment of Foot. What I cannot do is understand why the baptism refers to the 83rd and the GRO index to the 26th.

Wait - oh yes I can! (OK, I'm laying it on a bit here....)
Here's his father, I think,
First name(s) Edward
Last name Bryan
Birth year 1826
Birth parish St Marys
Birth town Kilkenny
Birth county Kilkenny
Birth country Ireland
Service number 1191
Rank CORPORAL
Regiment 26th Regt Of Foot
Year 1847
Attestation date 22 Oct 1847
Attestation age years 21
Discharge corps 26th Regt Of Foot
Discharge service number 1191
Document type Discharge
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 1900
Box record number 154
Record set British Army Service Records

You really need to sit down and double check this because these are just discharge papers and don't contain as much info as the full set for Joseph. But in 1861, Edward is in the 83rd, then he goes to the 44th (in Dec'r 1861) and goes to the 26th in 1865, where he is discharged from. So the GRO Index is indexed not by the contemporary regiment but the last! Weird.... But rather interesting....
Adrian
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Re: No birth record

Postby Tobina » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:26 pm

Wow! Thank you so much JMcK & AdrianB this gives me lots to investigate. His daughter was Susie Teresa so you’ve got the right person. I’ll certainly work through all the information and hopefully add more facts to the tree. Thanks again for all your help.
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