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England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

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England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby Jethro Tull » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Hello All,

I'm after a little help please understanding the records contained within the England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers.
I have stumbled upon an entry for a great uncle of mine, I can see it details the depth of his grave, the burial date and whether he paid for a monument or not. It also lists his half sister buried in the same plot at one foot more shallow.
My question relates to the other names listed on the plot number. At deeper depths and dates predating my family there are 3 other names, none are related to each other or my family. They all have lines put through them. Would anyone know if his means the bodies where exhumed and moved elsewhere? Or possibly they are all still in the same plot together?

Cheers

Dan
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby junkers » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:34 pm

I would expect that if a family member brought the plot (known as a lair in Scotland) that there should not be members of an unconnected family there as well. It might be that the plot has been reused but unless it is a pauper grave then that would unlikely for at least 100 years.
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby Jethro Tull » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:02 pm

Cheers for the thoughts junkers, none of the previous burials have monuments listed on them so may well indicate no one else has paid for the plot. The dates between burials are less than 100 years, its actually less than 55 between the 1st and the 4th (my great uncle). I think that with the line put through the previous ones I will assume they moved the previous burials, as you mention, possibly a paupers grave.

Cheers

Dan
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:42 pm

Dan, based on what I've seen in Deceased Online, it would be foolish to guess at how any one office actually worked. What crossings out meant in one, could easily be different in another. If we could actually see the entries it might be possible to construct some possibilities.

Why don't you give us some details then we can have a look for ourselves - we'll probably end up equally confused, mind!
Adrian
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby Jethro Tull » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:59 pm

Hi Adrian,

There does not seem to be any consistency at all in the records, I've now found another relative in the same cemetery and the paperwork is different again.

The details of my initial query are for a Joseph William Wickman, buried 17th Feb 1954 in Queens Road Cemetery Walthamstow. His half-sister is Rosina Burgess buried 24th April 1968, both in grave 1771B.

I've just noticed as well the chap previously buried in the plot before my Great Uncle had a grave marker on the plot which was moved in 1947 to the plot next door 1770B, which appears to be his family plot.

Cheers

Dan
Jethro Tull
 
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby AdrianB38 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:04 pm

Dan - this is all just guesswork based on logic.... But....

It makes no sense to me that red-lined names were exhumed. Quite apart from the number of them and the implied workload, if you look there is a column "Depth of Grave - Feet". Given that all the dates associated with (red-lined) Charles Edward Rose are way before the 1954 burial of Joseph Wickman, I'd expect to see JW's grave deeper than it is, if the previous bodies had been exhumed. But it's not - it's shallower than the previous ones, as you'd expect from burial on top of them.

Also Charles Rose isn't recorded against the previous plot (1770B) only against this one.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that red-lining meant that the "ownership" of the plot had been given up. ("Ownership", as I guess many of us know, is simply ownership of the right to burial in that plot, not ownership of the ground, which remains with the cemetery. I wonder if "ownership" here was time limited?)

Maybe there was (periodic?) tidying up - the Rose stone was moved in 1947 from 1771B to 1770B to free up the 1771B plot for "purchase" by the Wickmans in 1948????? Having said that red-lining means ownership has been given up, there is no direct evidence here that the 1771B plot had been "owned" beforehand - but see below.

If you look at 1773B, the 1900 and 1922 burials are red-lined - there is a note "Given up rights" in 1936, and Mary Ann Bennett then purchases the rights for a 1937 burial.

Again, on 1774B, burials in 1931 and earlier, have been red-lined - there is a note "Given up rights" dated 1946 followed by a 1948 burial.

1768B has an interesting marginal comment in 1943 "Letter returned not known" - were they sending a letter to the previous known owner asking if they wanted to retain the burial rights? Apparently, by default, the answer was "No" and the earlier entries are red-lined for a 1949 purchase and burial. However, note that there is no evidence of ownership on the right before that 1949 purchase. The 1943 letter makes less sense if the plot wasn't owned - maybe there is another register that we haven't seen, listing ownerships. This wouldn't surprise me - in Deceased Online, my local cemetery has just one set of registers visible - the Grave Register, like this - but cross references make it clear that there are others not published - one for gravestones, one for burials (presumably in date order) and a Register of Purchased Graves. So it may be that 1768B, 1771B, etc, were all purchased beforehand, even though there's no visible evidence here.

That's my best guess....
Adrian
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Re: England and Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers

Postby Jethro Tull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:52 am

Adrian,

Thanks for all of that. It's certainly not that straight forward to understand. It does all make a little more sense now though. Thanks for taking a look for me.

Cheers

Dan.
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