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George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

A problem shared is a problem halved. Post your brick walls here and see whether you can offer advice to others

Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:09 am

I appreciate your input and I can see what you are saying regarding GFH could have been baptized at any time prior to marrying in 1846 and I now have considered widening the search years.
Another possibility has crossed our minds is that as there is zero information regarding GFH from birth in 1822 to when his service record started in 1841 is that perhaps he was abandoned at birth but there appears to be little or no information on what happen to unwanted babies/children in the 1820's to try to confirm that.
We had forgotten that James could not jump in his car and pop up the motorway in 1846 to his sons wedding so we can understand why he probably didn't attend.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:45 am

Hi Maz
At this point I think it's a matter of going through everything that IS known with a fine tooth comb and looking for clues.
Rather than his being abandoned at birth I'd think it is more likely he was left an orphan if both parents died (or mother died and father was away at sea).Depending on age I suppose, like your grandfather, he could have fended for himself, or (like your grandfather's sister Florence) been put in the workhouse.You mentioned at one point you believed him to be illiterate: does that mean he did not sign his name at his wedding?This would then suggest he received no schooling and would make the workhouse less likely.That would have been likely to give basic literacy.
I did wonder about the Greenwich Hospital School (records at National Archives/Discovery).But there is no sign of him there either under the names HELSDEN or FLETCHER or using GEORGE FREDERICK only.
This probably makes it more likely his father was Merchant Navy rather than RN.And if perhaps those 1832 records for James Helsden are those for his father he certainly would not have been sent to school AFTER that.At age 10 he probably would have been expected to find some kind of work.

What I did find in the Greenwich Hospital School records were the Magee children! Applications to attend at least, not clear whether these were successful.These were for Esther, George Augustus and I think an older brother Peter. And also two for the next generation.
One application claimed that Peter Magee senior (father of Charlotte and Esther) served on HMS Victory with Admiral Nelson at the Battle of Trafalgar.There IS a Peter Magee on the muster roll at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/traf ... p?id=17764
But i'm not 100% sure it is a match.
None of those records are digitised unfortunately.I'll try to post a bit more detail (have misplaced my notes!).

Another thing I noticed: GFH's first service was on HMS Belleisle from October 1841.But HMS Belleisle sailed (as a refitted troopship) from Plymouth.What was he doing in Plymouth???
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:12 pm

Hi sparrow. I know what you mean about focussing on what we do know. We have virtually worn the print off of birth, marriage and death certificates where we have read and re read them in case we have overlooked some little snippet of information. Not to mention the reams of paper we have amassed with all the different information we have found or that you guys have helped us with. That was a good point you made regarding GFHs literacy, and something we hadn’t given a thought too regarding the fact that, had he been raised in a workhouse, he would have had basic literacy. His marriage certificate wasn’t signed by him or Esther, just the ‘mark’ of, so I think we can conclude from that that he/they were illiterate. With this information I think we can rule out looking for him as a little boy in workhouses now so another box ticked thank you. You mentioned James 1832, do you know sparrow that we have scoured both FMP and Ancestry and cannot find this James. Can you give us an idea of your source please?
Justmaz
 
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:54 pm

Ancestry as JAMES HELSDON ( I just had it set to a slightly wider search I think).

National Maritime Museum; Greenwich, England; Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admission Registers; Reference Number: DSH/3
and
London, England, Church of England Deaths and Burials, 1813-2003
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:42 am

Thank you sparrow, this is definitely worth following up, much appreciated.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 24/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:19 pm

Good evening; We are still digging in the depths for James the father of GFH but still cannot find the vital link between them.
We are hoping that you could possibly help us with any pointers as to how or where we could access the 1831 census possibly the Devon area but this is just an idea not based on fact, as GFH would have been around 9 years old at that time and may have been with his mother, that is if we believe his father was James and also a mariner.
As suggested we have also looked into the possibility that GFH was abandoned as a youngster but have achieved nothing but we have struggled to find any records of the 1820's, are we missing the obvious??
Justmaz
 
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:24 am

Hi Justmazz
Unfortunately the 1831 Census is nothing like 1841 onwards.
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/England_Census

With no idea of where GFH may have been living (land or sea?) as a child this does not seem feasible as a source.I'd say the only chances of finding him (and/or James)prior to 1841 (with the 1841 Census itself being a real possibility) are institutional records or a newspaper report (do you have a subscription that covers newspapers?).

Norfolk does seem to be by far the best guess for anyone named HELSDEN/HELSDON.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:20 am

Many thanks for your response, We have been through the 1841 census using both main companies and as you suggest to no avail. Unfortunately we have no idea what happened to GFH or the family in between his birth in 1822 and joining the Royal Navy in 1841 and are pinning our hopes that the only reason we couldn't find GFH with a possible family on the 1841 census was because he was in the RN, but where was the family??
We have looked through the institutional records and apart from finding all sorts of info on later generations which is really interesting..... but no GFH.
We have been through the newspapers around the time of him entering the planet and joining the navy (to the point of my head being in a spin), just in case their was something special about his birth or that perhaps his mother died in childbirth on board ship and have tried to work out how or why his mother was on board ship when heavily pregnant.
We don't understand why on GFH marriage certificate it states that James was a mariner but we cannot find a record of him.
The quest continues.....
Justmaz
 
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby sparrow » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:52 am

I work on the basis that something crops up when least expected.One of mine turned up having run away to sea and then jumped ship in Australia, almost two decades after my mum and I had half jokingly guessed this might have been the case!!
Having said that I could build a large -ish city with my brick walls and some of them are from periods far better recorded than the 1820s/1830s, though there are plenty there too.

Good luck. I actually have a private 'tree' for GFH on Ancestry (because i kept forgetting things) and even I live in hope of the magic 'hint'. But seriously I believe there is still a chance of more workhouse records becoming available, and of course a bigger chance of more local newspapers.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby Justmaz » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:51 pm

Funny you should mention it GFH son Adolphus Rodney skipped the country and left two children on the streets so history could have repeated itself!
I believe what compounds our problems are:
We cannot confirm if James was GFH father and was supposedly a mariner because as I found out yesterday on a TV programme it doesn't mean these were necessarily true.
We have no idea who GFH mother was only that she was on a ship on the 24th December 1822, why mum was on the ship we have no idea.
Although all the census etc suggests that GFH was born on board ship in the Tagus we have no idea the name of the ship.
As GFH was born in 1822 and the 1831 census appears sparse to say the least finding him or the family is going to be difficult.
My brick walls are slightly different to yours because mine are damaged where i keep hitting my head against them :lol:
Justmaz
 
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